Difference in grammar schools vs high schools

What Lurked said. Ds was at grammar. It wasn't a good match for him for a number of reasons, mainly due to lack of experience with learning difficulties. Luckily we can afford (just) to send him private, because the only state school within catchment which is not the grammar is in special measures.

Selection by house price is almost as selective in terms of class/income of parents as grammars, with the disadvantage that rather than tutoring mc parents get their children in by either moving or an ability to challenge decisions via the appeal process in a way that for eg less educated or speakers of English as a second language can't! At least with grammars children who are naturally very able can get in by doing well in the exam. I concede it's not a perfect system though, far from it!

"ta1kin does that include selection by house price? And by county? So dc in a rural, coastal, or deprived area outside London get exactly the same comprehensive education as dc in London or mc areas?

Because until we solve that problem, I don't see why selecting on an exam is any more unfair."

Exactly. Exactly...

Talkinpeace I was a loser in the system, however my birth sister adopted sister and both my DDs have been winners through it !

I guess that means the 11+ has been beneficial to my family by a margin of 4- 1 ...

"flyingwithwings* , I think we have to look more at society as a whole. So many of our children have such poor role models and chaotic upbringings. School can't solve all of societies ills, especially when Government are not interested in rewarding teachers, only punishing them and then privatisation by stealth in the form of academies.
I work in a challenging school and have done for 3 yrs, I volunteered there for a gear before and have worked in other schools during my training. Any 'evidence" I post of behavioural issues should be taken with a pinch of "anecdotal post" salt. If that is the case for me, then some temp who flitted from school to school for a year but now professes to be an authority on the state sector should possibly be....ignored. Ahem.

Ah, but selective education does rather mean that many stakeholders are considerably less interested in 'solving that problem' than they might otherwise be.

Which is a shame, because it's really not a difficult one to solve.

ta1kin does that include selection by house price? And by county? So dc in a rural, coastal, or deprived area outside London get exactly the same comprehensive education as dc in London or mc areas?

Because until we solve that problem, I don't see why selecting on an exam is any more unfair.

mouse
the best way to achieve that is to abolish ALL selection in schools
especially by faith
and definitely by spurious badly designed academic exams

schools in cities with only comps are now feeling the benefit of motivated immigrants
in fact chinese and south asian kids have whumped white kids in exams for years

Ta1kinPeece

Multiculturalism perhaps? Mixing together? A society that pulls together?
Helping each other? Educating children to live a work together?

Mousse
so you are racist?
I am "culturally assimilated"
until I say so, nobody realises I'm a first generation migrant
but then I'm white and blonde well gray now

PS in non grammar areas where sets are fluid
much of the nasty pass / fail stuff does not happen
because it cannot

as a "winner" in the selective system, I wish it was gone

Cultural assimilation

Not something I want for my kids, not something I want to teach or promote, not something I want for my country.

Thank you Maqueen . Sometimes the truth has to be told despite being politically incorrect !

My dear no 1 younger sister has been teaching for 18 years now , you could not find a more committed teacher around.

The last year she has come very close to jumping ship to the independent sector (something she never envisaged doing) ! This is not because of the 'globally' perceived incompetence of the current Governments education policy but because behavior of pupils has gone to impossible lows !

There is a head of Chemistry job at her DDs Private school where they would take her in a heartbeat. The very reason her DD goes private is because of the lack of grammar or academically stimulating schools in the County.

Sister is going to give one more year in her current comprehensive school before switching to the private sector .

Sister suggests it is very convenient for the Unions to pinpoint all of state educations woes on the current Government, without realizing the biggest demoralizing factor for teachers is pupil Behavior , not Government plans for GCSEs.

MaQueen - do you not think 11 GCSEs may be too many. Not always for every child but I wouldn't use it as a selling point.

"If you went in to teaching for 'behavioural' management, maybe a career in the prison service might have been better !

It is a stain on education, society and family life that we are suggesting that because a teacher taught in a composed stable and focused environment , they have became 'deskilled' to real life teaching.

Surely all classroom environments should not need a teacher to be skilled in man management skills more appropriate to a nightclub doorman trying to calm down a drunken yob !"

Couldn't agree more flying. I spent a year working as a TA and Cover Supervisor in various secondary schools to see if I wanted to change career and become a teacher.

My experiences showed me that teaching really, really wasn't for me. Because I actually wanted to teach my subject.

Our local school is advertising for a director of isolation and detention. Some schools are very much bigging up "behaviour management"

The point of having a director for detention etc is to reduce the need for individual teachers to manage behaviour, by centralising it as much as possible. So individual teachers can set detentions knowing that they won't have to personally give up their time to supervise them, that they won't be the person having to chase up absconders, ring parents etc. It also means the system is perceived as more fair by children, because they see it being consistently enforced schoolwide, rather than differing between teachers.

I've read a number of teachers enthusing about working in environments with centralised behaviour systems like this.

The story here is any child that needs to be 'locked' up or restrained at Primary or Secondary school should not be in school !

The very fact the council describes the intervention as the correct procedure being undertaken is frightening because it suggests that such actions are common place !

Christ what has happened, to children's behavior , when we were at sc Primary school standing facing a wall with your hands on your head was sufficient to bring us back in to line !

At secondary school just the threat of being put in detention worked at my school which was inits self (a dire Kent Modern school).

www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/young-boy-locked-padded-cell-12464641

Another school locking up or isolating children....

It was a shock and sadness to me that up until then, as they were growing up through primary school that they had begun to feel alienated from their peers.

Yes, that happened to my dd at primary school too.

At secondary school they have thrived and found other girls like them

Yes my dd found the same at her comp and boys who are like her too. There are 240 in her year, so plenty of people for her to find lovely friends who are like her. She's much happier than at primary school.

Our local school is advertising for a director of isolation and detention. Some schools are very much bigging up "behaviour management".

Agree with you there flyingwithwings.

Also, just standing up for our grammar teachers - there is still a spread of abilities amongst my daughter's peers. Kids still have their strengths and weaknesses. Even if that range of ability is more narrow than at a comp, teachers do still have to address the ranges and teach accordingly. Our school only sets for maths, my kids think they should also set for English.

However, a grammar school is more than that. This is because i think the very fact admission is an ambition or a result of an end game. The cultural assimilation of similar minded people focused on achieving an educational opportunity for their children , in many cases that will far out exceed their own ( whatever their social or monetary background is)

This attitude and cultural assimilation transfixes itself in to the children, hence the behavior , aspiration, confidence and politeness will come to the fore in the 'majority' of grammar school children. N.B there are always 'outliers' but these are tiny in number in comparison with the number of bad eggs in comprehensive schools.

In non grammar areas, where do these top end ability kids go? The top sets of comps. Where they form a critical mass....

And yes, some comps stream. Which actually is what a grammar is, a stream.

If you went in to teaching for 'behavioural' management, maybe a career in the prison service might have been better !

It is a stain on education, society and family life that we are suggesting that because a teacher taught in a composed stable and focused environment , they have became 'deskilled' to real life teaching.

Surely all classroom environments should not need a teacher to be skilled in man management skills more appropriate to a nightclub doorman trying to calm down a drunken yob !

The very fact that a teacher having such 'skills' is a bonus or advantage, for the job highlights that schooling for many kids is just a holding pen for society !

(And I can't type on a phone.)

Mousse I wasn't chalk and talk, I was fab but yes there were old school types there. I felt free to experiment more and be interactive/go with the class as they were easy to teach.

I taught elsewhere too so it certainly isn't the case that grammar schools get "better" teachers.

I certainly went into far more depth and was able to pursue higher thinking schools more at the grammar school. I loved it as a teacher, but as a parent I hate the effect it's had on the other schools.

I do think it's different skill sets. I can teach at a high academic level really well, but I have lost behavioural management skills .

Sister teaches year 7 and year 8 science to mixed ability sets it is only in year 9 where a 'modest' setting begins to happen. In practice year 10 sets because those doing three individual sciences are separated from those doing double science.

You know comps teach in ability sets? So a teacher is working to one learning pace per lesson?

Sister has differing levels even within the 'triple' science group pupils she teaches !

The difference in the academic levels at years 7 ,8 and 9 within one single group can be huge ! For instance some pupils at year 9 spend the lesson 'coloring' a science book aimed at 9 year old'., This compares with the brightest where preparation for studying triple sciences at GCSE level is required.