Difference in grammar schools vs high schools

CEM not CEMENT obviously anyway the point is they will still be curriculum based and a million miles away from the old VR.

MumTryingHerBest but not back to codes / VR but to curriculum based things - also the reason for the move is that CEMENT chose not to bid for the contract. The original contract was for 3 years which was the current year 9 - 7.

Our GS has a fund that is specifically to pay for children to go on trips they might not otherwise be able to afford - beyond PP. Set up by the head 10+ years ago because he was that poor kid at GS 40 odd years ago, his dad was a milkman.

Used uniform is directed to one local charity shop.

Why wouldn't pp funding be enough if it's only trips and uniform? Granted it won't cover expensive ski trips, but I'd be very surprised to find any school where every dc goes on every trip abroad.

A high achieving pp child at a grammar is highly likely to get a direct benefit from their extra funding, whether that's help with trips or uniform

But what happens if the help isn't enough.

Ollycat Fri 21-Jul-17 19:13:24 I ask because Bucks changed their 11+ significantly

Bucks is moving from CEM back to GL in 2018

My children aren't at either of those schools but yes the Chalfonts are very different to Wycombe. There are a huge number of preps around tgat area. At my children's school there are a number of private school joiners but I do feel the numbers are decreasing- the catchment area is very small and the last couple of years they haven't offered all of catchment whereas previous they had offered to about a mile or so outside catchment.

cantkeepawayforever Wycombe High School could have a fairly low number of prep joiners too. Bear in mind, though, some preps. do SATs.

It is clear from the leavers destinations of some preps. however, that some Buck Grammars have fairly high numbers of prep. joiners e.g. Dr Challenors.

cantkeepawayforever I ask because Bucks changed their 11+ significantly- current year 9 (next years 10) were first to take it and it did appear to have an impact on the results so will be interesting to see how it pans out. 1 class is 25% of year 7 so not an insignificant amount.

Obviously I understand the difference between anecdote and data

cant I fully agree, I was responding to the idea a pp child at a grammar would struggle because of the greater number of wealthier dc.

Year 11 - that's who the data is published for, as part of the GCSE results dataset.

Of course it can be simultanously true that nearly 1/3 of pupils in Year 11 went to private primaries based on whole school data, and that a single class in Y7 can have all state school educated pupils. That's why the plural of anecdote isn't data.

What year are the children who you're looking at.

Anyway I was talking about my daughters class - that is how it is.

Again, in the interests of accuracy, children who arrive from schools abroad post Year 6 will also not have KS2 scores, and will thus appear in the above percentages. I don't know the schools well enough to be able to judge which are in areas of high mobility and are likely to have 'occasional' places post Y7 for arrivals from overseas. However, where the figure is 20% of pupils in Y11, then it is very unlikely that all will have come from overseas.....

On the 'how many privately educated children in Bucks grammars' - the only one I can find with a small % of privately educated children is Burnham. All the others (selected by the crude measure of selecting schools in Bucks and selecting any with the word 'Grammar' in their name, plus Royal Latin) have at least 10% of children, and in a couple of cases double that or more, e.g. 55 / 180, who do not have KS2 scores, are not included in Progress 8 and thus are likely to have come from private schools.

I have to say I know of no one in Bucks who does 1:1 tutoring - most are tge DIY books from Smiths types.

Maternal education is always shown as a big deciding factor because of the positive effects it has on vocabulary. Obv in an opt out county there is no registering for 11+ - it happens automatically and children sit the test in their primary school. Similarly grammar and Uppers are in same town so same transport costs.

That said I don't disagree that middle class kids are not at an advantage when it comes to 11+ but I would say it is more from tge cultural capital in the home then 1:1,tutors (I think that madness belongs more to the super selective schools)

Sorry, that wasn't clear.

Child A is from a very low income household.
Child B s not.

They get the same mark in the 11+, although A has had little preparation (their mum bought a book from WhSmith) and B has had a year of 1:1 tutoring for an hour each week. A is statistically likely to be brighter than B.

Child C is like A, but doesn't enter the test, because they come from a family which is too chaotic to fulfil the application arrangements for the test. Similarly Child D from the same income band, whose parents know that the bus pass will cost them hundreds of ppounds they don't have.

Child E is another from the same background.
Child F is like child B - extensively tutored. They are not quite as bright as B, but with careful preparation, they pass. E is of equal ability, but without the test preparation does not pass.

So of course the child As do very well. the concern should be for children C, D and E, who despite being of grammar school calibre, are prevented by their relative poverty from accessing it.

the pp dc who do attend grammars do disproportionately well.

Yes, that's statistically obvious. Because of the barriers to a child from a low income home passing the 11+, such a child is likely to be 'brighter than the average 11+ passer with the same mark. It is therefore no surprise that such exceptionally bright children do well at grammars.

The issue is with the many PP children of equal ability to wealthier 11+ passers who DON'T make the cut, because of the barriers to them taking the test at all and because of the likelihood that their preparation for it if they take it will be less expensive and therefore potentially less thorough. Equally those who never enter because they can't afford the bus fares even if they do get in.

awful pushy parents who over tutor their dullard children

No, that is a fault with the system - that tutoring CAN affect whether a child gets in or not. It shouldn't be able to. Of course if tutoring conveys a benefit, and attending a private primary is allowed (I know that will be variable across the country - Pates' 25% was higher than i expected and, I would guess, atypical) then people who can buy tutoring will .. and then it becomes 'how things are done', despite the obvious knock on effects on those from low income homes. It's not reasonable to expect parent NOT to tutor their children if they can afford to under these circumstances.

If tutorable tests have to remain, then the grammar school should tutor PP children and others from low income households or deprived primaries (it would be in their interests, as each PP child admitted will start to closer the funding gap)

I disagree entirely with the notion a pp child at a grammar will miss out because of the presence of wealthier fellow pupils. A high achieving pp child at a grammar is highly likely to get a direct benefit from their extra funding, whether that's help with trips or uniform. Whereas at a school with more deprived pupils and lower academic outcomes, pp is more likely to be targeted at low achievers so they don't personally benefit from it.

It's also widely acknowledged that the pp dc who do attend grammars do disproportionately well.

Forgot to mention all of my daughters class (year 7) were from local state primary schools.

I went to one of the Winchester comps mentioned up thread and my family still live in Winchester. Yes there are many very comfortably off families in the area but I think all the schools (one in particular) have areas of deprivation in their catchment's. Winchester has one 6th form college which serves the whole area and has made it into the Tatler state school list. But yes overall Winchester is a very monied, educated area - when I was at school (a long time ago) there was a strong link between where you lived and achievement.

I now live in Bucks - a wholly selective opt out County and my children are in a very sought after grammar (which has also appeared in the Tatler list). Whilst the results of the grammar are higher then the comp I would say the overall educational experience are similar.

I also work in a comp in a neibouring county to Bucks - it is a v high achieving comp. The main difference between it and my children's school is that the grammar offers way more extra curricular activities and has very high expectations. Tge curriculum is also broader - the drama, dance, PE, DT and music departments are of s very high standard. We also have a bit insignificant number of children who have been selected to represent England/ GB in their chosen sports. All the children are fiercely proud of their school. The range of trips is extensive (and pricey) - sports tours to Australia, space camp in USA to name two - the comp I work in offers less trips but still has expensive skiing trip.

My children's school is exceptional- they are very fortunate and they know that. Tge Upper School in our town is also exceptional so it does not have to follow that Uppers are rubbish. All children should have access to high quality education.

As an aside tge problem with all grammar threads is they are always an opportunity to bash the awful pushy parents who over tutor their dullard children to send them to these places

Flyingwithwings What?! No finishing school
In Switzerland?

No they really are different to us in their thinking !

The elder daughter of the other extremely wealthy family having just finished her GCSEs is now working 'Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights in a 'Chip' shop.

The wealthy girls have the worst phones of any of their year groups. They dress in the same brand of clothes as every one ,only ever have enough money for one drink one bag of popcorn at the cinema ETC .

The parents seem to be quite focused on keeping their children grounded or 'anti -spoiling ' them and actually denying what the normal kids take for granted i.e smart phones.

I'll feed back on this in 1 year.
DT2 off to grammar in sep
DT1 off to comp in sep

Both are the same academically.

Difference so far is
cost of uniform
at GS DT2 has to learn Mandarin, an instrument and join combined cadet forces
A longer school day at grammar
more homework

(And I do mean 'free tutoring for an hour weekly for a whole year', which seems to be the normal procedure for 11+ private tutors)

I am fine with either 'all through' solution - for a parent to choose to buy private educatiopn for their children all through, or for a parent to choose not to, and use state education all through.

The thing I object to is parents buying advantage in the admissions process for a state secondary by paying for a private primary.

This is partly, of course, because the tests are so 'teachable' - the 11+ does not select 'the x% brightest', it selects fairly randomly from the much larger percentage who are 'towards the top of the ability range', and favours the well-prepared and well-tutored above children who are equally bright but not well coached. Of course, some children get in who are untutored - but given 2 children of the same ability who might be more marginal, the better prepared one is more likely to get the place.

If the test was genuinely of ability or potential,. and could not be affected by previous teaching or training for the test, then private schooling could buy no advantage and wouldn't matter. As previous teaching and training DOES make a difference, then IMO children who have attended private primaries within e.g. the previous 4 years should not be allowed to sit the test for a state-funded grammar school. Also, all grammars should run free tutoring for any and all children from all primaries within their admissions area with greater than the local average of PP children, or, alternatively, for every single PP child in their admissions area.