Is this school govenor's take on Progress 8 scores correct?

You can't fake SATs results as a school.

DfE calculates progress 8 from THEIR records of ACTUAL SATs results.

Yes, schools may use 'guessed' SATs results for internal progress monitoring, but it will make NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL to external progress measures, the ones that are used to create league tables et al.

All of your other remarks seem to apply to coursework. Which current GCSE specs, used by current Y11 and Y10 downwards, use coursework? So that information is out of date at best.

All of the others - well, you chose not to report it. In the schools i know of, such events have been reported promptly, dealt with severely (including this year) and simply don't recur.

And perhaps the biggest problem surrounding the culture of cheating is those who work in education not wanting to be brave, stand up for what is right, and make full disclosure, to erm, mumsnet.

A few selected quotes from a times educational supplement thread on cheating; there are many threads on cheating, and they all say similar.

community.tes.com/threads/is-there-any-room-in-teaching-for-an-honest-man.758828/page-2

"Controlled" assessments are not controlled any more. Teachers cheat on them. This is normal daily practice in most schools. Sticking by the rules just leads to the "data going down" scenario and almost certainly capability.

I will not cheat. That is my red line. So like many others, I am calling it a day.I am leaving teaching. I do not see that I have a choice.

The system is corrupt and, what is far worse, it is deeply corrupting. Coursework had been widely abused and some staff turned a blind eye to work that was obviously not done by the candidates themselves.Exams have always been high stakes for candidates, but once target setting and the myth of rigid measurements of expected progress became all -important, the insidious cheating epidemic started becoming widespread amongst teachers. And I can't say I blame them.

The whole system bears down on teachers at every level and compromises their scruples.

staff providing idiot-proof templates or dictating notes.

Meanwhile, SLTs spent all their time gaming the system. I remember a deputy Head telling me to cast aside my moral scruples , telling me that few schools adhere to controlled assessment guidelines.

Now, as an examiner, I am currently wading through 60 pieces of almost identical coursework from one centre, having just marked 80 odd lengthy efforts of A level standard, purportedly written in one hour, having marked another centre whose work consisted of chunks of Google .I have reported it but nothing will be done.

So don't do it. Whistleblow and walk. You are propping up a corrupt system.

It is difficult these days to find teachers who are unwilling to fudge things.

Amen to all the above. Whistleblowing, however worthy, does eventually lead to repossession of one's house.....

I've blown it! Must be a dog whistle as nobody can hear it!

It's a scandal but when I challenged it I was told that we all had to play the game.

In vocational subjects like BTEC it was rife. Whole classes just copying out stuff from text books, pre-prepared sheets or the internet. I was even told by a senior member of staff to 'pass' some pupils who had not been in for months as 'we'll get them in next week'. I refused.

This sounds familiar

Exam results are no longer about establishing a measure of student's ability but where you come in league tables and whether you can avoid a visit from our Ofsted friends.

Sadly, the profession is full of people who were either complicit in cheating or turned a blind eye to it.

Until all qualifications are based purely on exams taken under supervision by independent adjudicators then the schools who do it properly with zero cheating are at a serious disadvantage

Fully agree, completely corrupt

Young people learning that lying and cheating is just the norm and fine

I was a whistle-blower. I was put on gardening leave whilst the investigation took place....others teachers were witnesses. Yet I did compromise, signed a gagging clause, walked away after six months of hell, depressed. Was it worth it? No, sadly the cheating at that school continues
it made no differance.

They were more concerned with the pass rates than cheating

Like you I have been there, still got the scars to prove it. The root causes IME., are senior management hung up on financial pressures, some staff who cheat along with the students and BTEC not policing in a professional manner.

for example seeing children arriving without SATs being given low 'entry' points internally and assuming that these are the 'real' baseline from which Progress8 is calculated,

I have seen SATS results faked for students who have not taken SATS in at least 4 schools

see the sharing of standard marking criteria and believing that this is in some way 'illegal sharing of answers,

I have seen children doing GCSE controlled assessments with the mark scheme in front of them. I have seen the mark scheme being written out in more child friendly language and printed out and given to candidates who might struggle to understand the exam board original.

I have seen this in three schools in the last three years, and I have heard of it from friends and colleagues in at least a further 10.

see entry for a variety of qualifications and interpreting it as 'cheating' when it is done so that all children leave with something showing what they can do, rather than a very low grade in an academic exam being the only option available to the less able

I have seen children copying each other in the actual real GCSE exam, I have seen one child log onto the internet during a GCSE exam, and have heard of 40-50 others doing so, mostly in my current school, but also in other schools, when I have asked. At least 3 or 4 other local schools. I have seen scribes make up their own answers, and other support staff acting as invigilators dictate answers to candidates.

where am I "off beam" in calling these things cheating?

[I have been into lessons in an outstanding secondary, one of the most highly selective schools in the country, and been utterly appalled by the quality of the teaching, so I do know it can happen... ]

Scissormister,

The question is, how old was the Outstanding rating? As schools which are rated Outstanding are seldom, if ever, reinspected, it is probably the least reliable of the Ofsted grades unless obtained within the past 2 years (in which case it was measured on relatively recent criteria and therefore is more likely to be 'real')

So I would trust the SM judgement of the OP's school, as it is recent - as in, I would expect it to be a Grade 3-4 school, and worse than an Grade 2 or 1 school inspected recently against the same criteria.

I would not trust an Ofsted Outstanding inspection report from 10 years ago.

I don't know about Progress 8 but I have been into Ofsted Outstanding schools as an observer (in preparation for taking a pgce) and have been utterly appalled by the poor quality of teaching. I now place no trust at all in ofsted ratings.

To be fair, doctor, user's experience - or her interpretation of her experience - in the microcosm of her current school, may be reality.

Her interpretation of that reality - for example seeing children arriving without SATs being given low 'entry' points internally and assuming that these are the 'real' baseline from which Progress8 is calculated, or see the sharing of standard marking criteria and believing that this is in some way 'illegal sharing of answers, or see entry for a variety of qualifications and interpreting it as 'cheating' when it is done so that all children leave with something showing what they can do, rather than a very low grade in an academic exam being the only option available to the less able - seems to me to be flawed.

Her assumption that what she sees and interprets in her school is what happens absolutely everywhere, combined with her faulty interpretation of what she sees - that's where she is way off beam.

It isn't. Aspects of it may be (the SPaG marking for instance), but what you are going on about does NOT reflect reality in anyway.

the education system needs bringing into disrepute. It is corrupt and rotten to the absolute core. I sincerely hope most people realise it, too

@WinifredAtwellsOtherPiano I don't think we've ever had 17, but a lot of our students do a lot of GCSEs. Entirely optional 'extras' offered as extra curricular options (Astronomy, Geology, PE and Spanish - never knew a student do all of them though).
@user1497480444's misapprehension on what we were saying has already been noted. But I will just echo again what others have said. IF what User says is happening in her school is happening then she is complicit.
Cheating is detected every year and dealt with. In my last school we caught a student cheating on his Lit coursework. He was no longer able to do Lit with any board and had to switch to a 100% exam Lang course (this was a decade ago). His parents had to pay for tutors to teach him as it wasn't what we taught. He was allowed to stay for his exams but not remain for 6th form. He was very lucky that the boards let him sit any exams.
Cheating is reported in schools. We don't sweep things under the carpet.
User is bringing our entire profession into disrepute and I'm getting sick of it. Don't moan on here if your school is crap and you're not doing anything about it and don't think we're all as jaded as you. We're not. Some of us still care.

Of course it's possible to be gaming the system and also be a competent school. An "outstanding" academy school near us with a very academically mixed intake used to be pushing its high achievers through an average of 17 (seventeen!) GCSE equivalents. Now clearly most people would consider that inappropriate gaming of the system. But now the iffy BTech's have been stripped out they seem to be continuing to thrive under Progress 8 (95th percentile) and as far as I can tell they're a genuinely good school - they were just also gaming the system.

I don't have enough knowledge of the system to say whether fraudulent GCSE results are easily obtained. However I know which posters I believe on the subject.

It also doesn't fit with what I do know. The dodgiest school I know personally, which fiddles everything possible and outright lies/ ignores policy & law whenever it thinks it can get away with it clearly isn't cheating on exams from it's results. And top independents put a lot of time and money into obtaining every single mark for their top results. Nobody would really notice a few more a* from cohorts already selected on ability, and yet they don't seem to be abandoning teaching for cheating either.

Still off to be a 'Head of Sixth Form', User14? So claiming over sight of A levels or IB, right?

I realise engaging here is probably pointless but you've missed the point about SATs

People were denying that a secondary could cheat SATs results by lowering the results their yr 7s came in with in order to improve their progress 8 score. That CANNOT happen. Even if the school decided that the results were too high and they were going to lower them, the government would still be calculating progress scores on the actual results.

Primary schools, on the other hand can cheat SATs in order to improve their results. But that disadvantages secondaries and as a PP said is likely to decrease a secondary school's progress 8 scores.

Wtf! Ds1 school is consistently in the top 20 schools. My other dc are in a school which is rated good (their choice). Both schools have dedicated teachers who care about the dc and want the best for them, that includes teaching them not to cheat.

User should be ashamed of themselves, you bring your profession into disrepute by your disgusting attitude. You should understand the rules inside and out and ensure you abide by them. Anytime they are broken should be reported.

what difference does reporting make? None what so ever. I've been there, done that, and sat back and watched whilst other people do. The whole system is totally corrupt.

I quote admission:

As for any posters that say their school cheats (as opposed to just trying to get the best possible results by legal means) then shame on you for not reporting the cheating. How does that sit with your professional responsibilities?

I am ashamed to be part of the same profession as you, if you are what you claim to be.

This thread has individuals on it denying SATS can be cheated but they clearly are being, thoroughly so.

I know GCSEs are being cheated routinely. That's not even a question.

User, I think the thread is about GCSEs?

SATs cheating, if it takes place, would REDUCE progress8, not increase it as you suggest..

survey in the Times ES this week: more than 7% of primary teachers freely admit to cheating the SATS of their own free will, a further 10+% say they were coerced. So basically if you have 5 members of staff involved in SATS classes, including TAs, SMT etc, one of them admits to teaching. The Times itself says that it is unlikely that most cheats are going to be admitting it, and the figure has been put at more likely to be 3 in 5, including those who won't admit it, and those who don't actually consider it cheating.

they are not very well led and advised.....

It looks like the school is staying with its sponsor then. If there is no progress though, I would expect further action if Ofsted come back and there has been no improvement.

I have not checked the rules for academies, but in a state school you can ask for documents which are considered by the Governing Bidy that are not confidential. A school can share headlines with parents to keep them up to date with what they intend to address and how they will do it - although Ofsted will have spelt this out in their report. You need to keep your eyes peeled for the next Ofsted visit. I would worry that the SLT and Governors are not up to it. Is the school in a multi academy trust or was it a stand alone converter? What expertise and advice did they buy in? It does not appear they are very well led or advised.

A school in SM is probably much worse than poor statistics. Usually it will be the majority of categories at a 4 and that will mean it is poorly led, managed and that there is poor teaching. All of this will back up the lack of progress. Also inspectors have a lot of detailed info from the school for all years! Not just their y11s. They look at how teachers assess progress, accuracy, quality of teaching and learning, the curriculum and much more.

It is likely the SLT, Governors and MAT(?) have burried their collective heads in the sand - for years. I would bet they have not had good enough data to even know where the problems lie, let alone do anything about them.

Lack of action would worry me. Is this school already an academy?