Is this school govenor's take on Progress 8 scores correct?

user,

Your school may be incapable of linking a UPN, date of birth, and pupil name to sets of results.

However that really doesn't mean that an external body holding all that information can't.

My understanding is that it works like this (happy to be corrected by a genuine school data person or DfE employee, though):

The DfE has the SATs results of each child, against a pupil number.

They then get the GCSE results, against the pupil number.

They match the two (or there is no match because there are no SATs results), and thus calculate Progress8.

Are you saying that the schools you have worked in don't even have any record of which pupils they have in them??

Of course, internal data sometimes gets delayed / shuffled - for a new child I sometimes get a full set of reports, and sometimes don't get any data at all. However, the data still exists, held OUTSIDE the school(s) in question, and can be linked to GCSE / other post 16 qualifications.

people are not micro chipped like cats, you can't prove that two names belong to the same pupil, or that one name isn't two people

Our local school cheated on controlled assessment for History GCSE the year my daughter did them (2 years ago) by simply getting the children to draft and redraft, with the teacher in some cases writing in fairly lengthy changes for her to copy. Geography allowed the work to be taken home, even though it was supposed to all be done in school. MFL CAs were corrected and re-corrected by the teacher.

The Guardian articles below talk about this issue. A fair number of teachers commenting below the article said their school also cheats, but a fair number said theirs didn't. So, clearly this is an issue in some schools, though there isn't really any way of telling how widespread it is.

www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2015/jun/27/secret-teacher-we-help-pupils-to-but-how-long-before-its-exposed

www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2017/jan/28/secret-teacher-school-teaching-students-plagiarise

it doesn't work. students are not followed and tracked, they are simply not.

We frequently have multiple students with the same name

And date of birth? And UPN?
Have you heard of the National Pupil Database?

You are not in a position to say any of it is nonsense. you are in a position to say you haven't noticed any of it in your school, although I would guess that must take determination and effort. Phones in exam rooms are extremely common. Coursework cheating is practically universal, I only know one school that doesn't. Who cares how dull it is? The only concern is the grades.

So if I have a WHOLE CLASS who I KNOW did not attend primary school, where do you think their SATS data comes from?

If I KNOW a student DID attend primary school, and do well there, where do you think their SATS data disappears to?

There is so much uncertainty and confusion about which child came from which primary school and what records are theirs that I have even known teachers have to go to court to identify students, who need to prove residency, but whose primary school records have been totally lost, SATS results included.

Do you think students are micro chipped or something?

There is no way to prove whose SATS results are whose. We frequently have multiple students with the same name, apart from anything else, and just choose the results we want. School records simply don't move smoothly around following the child, Not when you have thousands upon thousands churning around in the system, arriving, leaving, changing, constantly, many with the same name, and many of whom change their names during their school career as well.

How could it POSSIBLY happen that the right SATS results unfailingly arrive at the right secondry school, and how could it NOT be possible for an awful lot of fixing and fiddling to be going into the shunting round of the data.

I've seen it many times.

I'm glad your invigilators are highly professional. How many do you have? We must have around 40-45 ( I am guessing) 40-45 casual workers for part tie temporary work, PER SCHOOL, about 20 state secondary schools in the borough, say, 750 invigilators required, some schools are smaller than ours... 750 people to find in one borough, not including private schools.... there are NOT 750 highly professional invigilators sitting round twiddling their thumbs waiting for exam season. They are mostly unemployed teens, or students earning a bit of beer money. Care, they do not.

2, 3 and 5 are nonsense.
2) secondary schools do not control the KS2 data and those without are not used in the Progress 8 data (how often do you have to be told this)
3) I have never worked in a school that did coursework this way. If nothing else it would be bloody dull. Admittedly I have only worked in 4 schools but they covered a fair range.
5) Phones do NOT make it in to our exam hall. If they did the said student would be disqualified. I'm not entirely sure how you think they could access the Internet and not be spotted by our highly professional invigilators who care about standards.
Clearly things are very different where you work.
I can't speak for BTEC we don't do them.
A post such as the one you quote from is naturally going to attract people who agree with it. I for one have never gone on a TES discussion board.
I have already told you about my experience whistleblowing which was a win win all round.
This is quite different from when I disagree with people on these boards normally. I frequently lock horns with people over selective education and we have managed to remain civil. The difference? Your outdated information amongst other things. Let me say again, secondary schools do not control KS2 data. It isn't our data to game!

Just to clarify:

My post yesterday evening was NOT my words, that was a list of quotes from other teachers from a thread on the Times Educational Website, entitled "Is there room in teaching for an honest man?" answer 4:1 straight NO - there are many more threads on cheating, a and many more quotes on the website.

I am not "moving my goal posts" or any such thing. The entire system is rife with fraud and cheating right across the board.

1. There is massive cheating in SATS. Absolutly MASSIVE

1. Of course secondary schools game their SATS baseline. It is laughably easy. Anyone who thinks school records follow students round from school to school with any level of certainty or reliability is deluded. I sometimes have had entire classes of KS4 students who didn't attend primary school or take SATS. It is a doddle to choose them some results. It's equally easy to lose results you don't like, you just say it is a new child and they don't have any results. No body checks.

1. Course work is cheated hugely. I know of ONE school which doesn't cheat in controlled assessments. Schools can't hand in identical controlled assessments, so commonly the teacher will put 5 slightly differently worded answers on the board, then go round the class saying pupil A - copy down answer 1, pupil B, - copy down answer 2, etc. Alter the order you call out the pupils in each question, and no two controlled assessments are the same.

1. BTEC portfolios are commonly lies from beginning to end, again I only know ONE school which conducts BTEC fairly and honestly ( not the same as the only school i know which doesn't cheat on controlled assessments - in fact the school which does BTEC fairly actually DICTATES controlled assessments to children)

1. Cheating in final exams is an every day occurrence, taking phones in and logging on to the internet to look up answers is normal. The old fashioned taking notes in happens a lot, cheating by looking and copying each other, if they are too close together I have also seen, and of course, passing your uniform on to your mate who is taking A levels in the subject works very well indeed, when all the invigilators are external, and no one knows your face.

Support staff, scribes, readers, etc also cheat outrageously sometimes too.

6. Whistle blowing is common but has no effect, the whole system is corrupt beyond what can be rectified by whistle blowers. There are a few times when cheating is punished, but it is far more likely to be the whistle blower that suffers.

I really don't see how I can be any clearer.

Well, yeah, genuinely 'bespoke' cheating is the one thing you can't do much about!

Although I've had a couple of 'ok, so talk me through your excellent essay - can you expand on this interesting idea? Oh you can't? Go away & come back with another ahem, draft, ok?' conversations & sent kids off squirming.

Plus our students all go to the same pool of 'private tutors' . One mad old bat in particular has a very recognisable style... I've quietly told several kids '... You might do better not to let Miss Ethel be quite so helpful, she's not necessarily up to date on new specification qualifications...'

This invariably generates a furious email from 'Ethel', but since she obviously can't quite come out & admit she's written the damn thing herself (& without actually looking at the assessment objectives), she then sulks off for a bit.

Roll on all terminal exams. To the extent that User14 has any vestige of a point, CW is where that point lurks.

One of my sixth formers made money on the side by doing homework for American kids through some website. They'd post the questions, he'd write the answers and send them off, then they'd copy it out in their own handwriting (maths). 5 dollars a time I think.

Plagiarism software isn't expensive, User14.

My school has Turnitin because we teach IB, which requires several coursework components, written & oral, either marked or moderated externally. So of course all teaching staff have accounts.

I'm introducing use for all KS4 submissions, as much as anything to encourage a culture of intellectual honesty. There is an unfortunate culture among students & parents here that coming from a prominent family & hurling money at the problem should automatically result in top results. A large part of our job, which is essentially to prepare for top UK & USA universities, is to get across that 'Nope, you do actually need to put some work in guys'.

However, Turnitin isn't cheap - thus far you are correct - & may well not be a budget priority for UK state schools, considering both the shocking state of UK education spending & the phasing out of coursework.

There are LOTS of perfectly adequate free plagiarism checkers, though, which are fine for GCSE purposes. I recommend www.smallseotools.com , for example.

It would be a good idea for teachers like user to be out of the system.

If anyone wants to read what happens when malpractice is reported, and typical outcomes, a summary of a sample of reports, investigations and outcomes are at the bottom of this document:
www.jcq.org.uk/Download/exams-office/malpractice/suspected-malpractice-in-examinations-and-assessments-2016-17

It's really interesting, actually, what's picked up on and how. Coursework moderators flagging up identical phrases in coursework, coursework that matches the mark scheme, dodgy invigilation, all sorts. Teachers get barred from dealing with exams for a few years, exam centres have their licence withdrawn, kids are disqualified.

User, I do find it interesting that each time your statements are queried, you move your goalposts .. so when it is pointed out that very, very few GCSEs have coursework elements now, you narrow your 'field of assertion' to BTECs.

When it was pointed out that a) SATs cheating would actually move progress8 backwards, and b) that those entering without SATs are not included in the DfE's calculation, you didn't respond, but just made wider sweeping generalisations.

To look at some hard data - in schools which have unannounced invigilation inspections, in how many cases was malpractice e.g. pupils having phones with them uncovered by the inspectors?

@user1497480444 seriously, stop this. It isn't. You said further down that you were leaving teaching I was under the impression that wasn't the case but there we go. Our profession is better off without someone who sees corruption and does nothing about it. Consoling herself that it happens everywhere it doesn't. I have only worked in schools which perform exceptionally well in league tables (although as a PP suggested not all our teachers are outstanding - I had to whistleblow on one). And yet, when coursework still existed checks were done to prevent plagiarism and it was dealt with where it arose.
You are clearly out of the loop when it comes to Progress 8. Secondary schools don't submit KS2 data. If there's no data that individual does not count. We also never made up SATS results for internal purposes. CAT scores (and entrance exam were used instead).

sorry, auto correct - that doesn't prevent CHEATING - not teaching.

it happens with staff encouragement, it happens with staff collusion, and it happens because invigilators are disinterested, and don't bother to check for phones, or watch candidates.

It is absolutely rife

We're not even allowed in the exam hall

teachers are not allowed in the exam hall, but that doesn't prevent teaching, especially if the people who ARE allowed in the exam hall are support teachers who want their open charges to shine or bored teens who were in the exam hall themselves last year, and now are picking up a little bit of pocket money as an invigilator.

it is common for an individual working as a scribe to have their performance management ( or their friend's performance management) and pay progression dependent on how their candidates performs in the exam THEY are scribing/ reading for, etc.

Part of my role is to run everything IB related through plagiarism software, & I've started doing this with everything from Y10 upwards.

Plagarism detectors could be part of the solution.

I love them.

Unfortunately they are not popular with SMT because they are a) too expensive and b) too good at identifying plagiarism!

So any of you that can be bothered to contact their MPs, making it compulsory for all coursework, for all courses to be submitted through a plagiarism checker would go a long way towards giving back integrity to courses like BTEC

My last post was a list of quotes from other teachers, non of it was my words, I am not an examiner, and I do not believe for one moment that final exams are free of cheating. They are not.

The whole system is totally corrupt, across the board, and a lot of people realise it. Nothing I am saying is outrageous, shocking or a minority opinion.

MNers need to get their heads out of the sand on this one.

From my personal experience, and the experiences of others, whistle blowing has no affect what so ever. The only person likely to be prevented is the whistle blower.

if you actually want to do anything about this, then contact your MP.

I'm a maths teacher, we're 100% exam-based and have been for years. I can say with confidence that my department achieves its excellent results through hard slog. We're not even allowed in the exam hall.

I can see why there is pressure to cheat on coursework (and SATs in fact). It's total madness to have an incredibly high-stakes exam system where the outcome affects both the school and the teacher, then put the school and the teacher in charge of maintaining the integrity of the test/coursework. Teachers shouldn't be anywhere near the assessments that their livelihoods depend upon.

I don't think teachers will mourn the passing of coursework. Absolute bloody nightmare.

User are you external marking? Or internal?

Goodness user14, I'm impressed you find time to be an examiner too.

I was an examiner for several years, & found it to be hugely valuable professional experience. I occasionally came across reasons to report, which if course I did. I fully agree with DoctorDonnaNoble that cheating is not to be countenanced.

These days I teach at an international school overseas. User14 might find herself, at least at first impression, at home here, as the prevailing culture is to produce coursework etc by any means possible; I know most of the tutors who will have a game stab at producing a gcse or IB submission, & our best defence against them is that their work is crap.

Part of my role is to run everything IB related through plagiarism software, & I've started doing this with everything from Y10 upwards.

Our students all have Turnitin log ins & can check their own work long before I sign it off, anyway.

I've taught for two decades. I've upheld professional standards throughout. It doesn't surprise me that there are 'colleagues' out there conniving at cheating practice, but I'd like to fully disassociate myself from the professional misconduct of User14 & reiterate that her posts not representative of good practice.

Until all qualifications are based purely on exams taken under supervision by independent adjudicators then the schools who do it properly with zero cheating are at a serious disadvantage

Well, with a Y11 taking exams this year - all exams except 1 MFL were exactly like this. That MFL is moving to a new examination format very similar to the minority language DS did this year - almost all final exam, with a short unprepared oral exam with a fluent speaker - from next year.

So fro next year, with the exception of Art which will continue to have a portfolio-type element as well as final exam, i think you have your wish....