State Schools Eclipse Eton in rankings for A-Level Science

You have a good point cookie because when stats are produced it is often working class white boy's and Afro Caribbean boys who do the worst in education whereas immigrant children do quite well - even those who have EAL.

It doesn't matter what your background is. If you don't have ambition and won't put in the hard graft you won't get there. It doesn't take wealth, top grades, or a stable background. I had none of these being a refugee when I came here in the 80s not speaking English. It takes pure hard grit and determination.

The reason why the majority of the poor don't make it to university is because of ambition and hard graft. Fact. If they really wanted to they can.

And most children that go to local day independents don't have same huge advantages of the most exclusive or same aspiration. There are some crappy independents out there.
My experience is that the type of work experience and university summer jobs offered is hugely dependent on the networks that those schools introduce you to.

and work experiences in the city are not offered by big name schools either with a couple of exceptions.
I wonder if there is mileage for a YouTube channel of people including from big firms talking about their careers and career paths plus what they would advise for entry level.

Most private schools don't offer nationally recognisable external speakers and debates etc either. You're not separating the big name schools that charge 30k from day schools that charge 15k.

I suspect what motivates them would be seeing and meeting the high flyers on regular basis and accepting it as the norm. Schools offering career networking events, regular nationally recognisable external speakers and debates, work experience opportunities and internships in the city rather than a local cafe, university clubs for old pupils, career speed dating etc are not, in the main state schools.

Do a similar proportion of state educated children actually covet the careers of those in positions of power and influence in society as the proportion of privately educated children who covet such career paths? What motivates people to do what they do and aspire to what they aspire to? Exam grades and subjects are only a small part of the picture when it comes to those in positions of power and influence predominantly coming from a tiny section of society.

Good link Noble and so true in my life experience.

And when I say I went to a shit comp - I think it was less than 10% getting 5 good GCSEs. Although I accept that schools are Much better nowadays.

bert I went to a really shit comp and got reasonable GCSEs (reasonable given the school). We had no extra curricular and were not encouraged to do A levels / try to get to uni. I went to a RG uni in my thirties whilst looking after a family including a child with VERY complex needs. I managed to graduate with an upper second. I am Limited in my ability to work though due to my caring commitments and as such we live close to the breadline (hence the full bursary). My own experience of attending a school which didn't encourage children to aspire to uni and additionally having parents who didn't encourage it has influenced me to try and break the mould for my own child and try to ensure he has opportunities to be in an environment which will encourage him to work hard and aim for whatever career path he may wish to choose (whether that be bus driver or Astro physicist).
I don't see myself as particularly well educated and im certainly not ambitious but I hope my son can be both those things despite his adverse and often chaotic home life.
I think we can safely say that the majority of private school children are not financially deprived but I think a lot do have other adverse situations at home or their own mental health issues to contend with (just like state school kids).

Private school kids are not immune to adverse home lives or mental health issues.
I have other children too who might go to the local comp as that might be what suits them best. Regardless of where they attend school I will do my best to encourage them to work hard and aim for whatever career they should choose and are capable of achieving.

*sys they are disadvantaged as for all that they will still be punted out of the top jobs to make way for a few from top private schools. Stats back this up as linked below.

You have also highlighted the separate issue of the huge inequalities in the state comp system and unfair funding across the country. A top comp in the SE in commuter distance to London is a world away from most elsewhere.*

I absolutely agree that a top comp in commuter belt is a world away from most elsewhere, absolutely.

However, I don't agree that my children will still be disadvantaged out of top jobs. I'm seeing quite a few of my kids friends older siblings graduating university having been at the same school as my children. They're finishing with 1st's and 2:1's from top universities - Oxbridge, Bristol, Leeds spring to mind. They're getting the training contracts with the magic circle law firms, the graduate schemes at the big management consultancies and the unpaid internships at Conde Nast or similar. They're not disadvantaged in any way whatsoever from not being in an independent school.

However, they're massively advantaged by having parents and peers who have been able to get them the work experience in the first place which got them the interviews for the grad schemes and parents who can afford for them to take on unpaid internships so that they can get the experience that they need to actually get a paid job in the media or journalism that countless other kids can't afford to take.

They've lived in the fancy en-suite halls at university entirely funded by their parents and mixed with the kids from the private schools there. In their holidays they've done Camp America, volunteered in Africa or travelled around Asia or done unpaid work experience in a private bank knowing that getting a bar job or working in a shop over the summer is a nice to do but not an essential because their parents would rather that they spent the time getting work experience or seeing the world and will financially support them until they get their first proper job.

That's what's getting them the jobs and by the time they've got that far, a good degree from a good university, good contacts through their parents, their friends, relative financial freedom knowing that their parents can and probably will step in and the connections they've made at university the fact that they went to a state school is neither here nor there.

"He does fly in the face of the myth that no disadvantaged children benefit from an indie education though"

Not none-but as good as none. And, forgive me-but you do not write like a person with very little education yourself.........

My child who is at an independent school courtesy of a full bursary isn't interested in the vast range of extracurricular activities on offer. He is a keen reader and will midtown be found in the school library (which of course any child can utilise library services either at school or on the community). But then my child doesn't really fit the norm or stereotype of an independent school child as he is from a disadvantaged background (pp child at primary school, young carer and some mental health issues of his own). I hope he studies STEM subjects and gets to university but it won't be the end of the world if he doesn't. He does fly in the face of the myth that no disadvantaged children benefit from an indie education though. He was also offered a grammar place but turned it down. Perhaps some middle class child without an adverse home life is benefitting from the education offered at the super selective grammar due to my son turning down his place

" is a huge and misleading myth (perpetuated above) that extracurriculars are essential for university entrance"I agree. I consider it one of my Mumsnet functions to refute that myth. I wasn't talking about University entrance specifically. Although suggesting that the bootstraps approach to preparing for an Oxbridge interview is comparable to the Eton approach is a bit ...

Definitely the school my children went to had it's own careers/university convention that was only for their own pupils. I can only say from direct experience. Yes my friend as a large MAT CEO tried to replicate this to no avail. There was zero response.
Broadsheets might be available online but you need a subscription to the Times and internet access. Libraries are not so easy to find - particularly for those living in rural or coastal poverty.
My friends MAT has tripled the numbers making it to RG/ higher professional courses and Oxbridge by appointing a Tzar to give their children (who are from poorer communities) improved life chances. The strategy of additional support clearly works - including an understanding that to appear confident in a medical school interview holey jeans and a slogan t shirt won't work.
Extracurricular is vital to build a rounded person who feels equal to other applicants and to learn the subliminal but important messages that are picked up where there are interviews. Panels are subject to unconscious bias just like the rest of us.

I don't think some people realise how tiny the overlap is between 'people who work hard' and 'people who are professionally and financially successful'.

Here's an article by an Asian computer science student about how opportunities came his way, how he was allowed to try new stuff and how much easier things were for him because he looked the part.
It's a really interesting read about how micro-inequities will defeat a hard-worker who doesn't fit the mould where someone who meets the stereotype will sail through.
www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2014/01/programmer_privilege_as_an_asian_male_computer_science_major_everyone_gave.html

But nobody wrote this, Bert.

It is a huge and misleading myth (perpetuated above) that extracurriculars are essential for university entrance. Of course extracurriculars are very valuable and develop confidence in students but they are not intrinsically necessary for university entrance.

Neither is reading printed newspapers - particularly in an age where so much information is available for free online. With limited resources available, giving out free newspapers (which is very expensive) is far less valuable than putting the same money into key educational resources for schools.

(And for what it's worth - members of my own family would make several hour round trips on borrowed bicycles to use educational resources from libraries on Saturday mornings, in an era where people had far less access to resources than we do now. Limited opening hours is a red herring - young people have often never learned how to use libraries.)

I agree Bert.

I always find it deeply depresing when parents of children at schools that offer literally anything they could want in terms of enrichment, cultural capital, self confidence and sonon say "oh, disadvantaged children could have the same- they only need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and go to the library!"

Limp, I never said your children lack ambition. On a concurrent thread to this one you have suggested they are at grammar school. Evidence in itself of determination and achievement that deserves congratulations. What I was saying is that articulate and caring parents like you can boost your children's chances in life in numerous ways. The private-state distinction is not the defining one. Privately educated children do not all fit the stereotypes that you have outlined.

Should the number of places at university for grammar school children be limited to the % who attend them? As around 20% of children go to private schools for sixth form, I am not convinced that the percentage of privately educated kids at university is completely out of line with the % meeting the admissions criteria anyway.

The more interesting point I wanted to draw out of your comments was about ensuring children reach their potential and have the opportunities that reflect their potential. Your approach to university admissions would not achieve this. In my experience over many many years of secondary classroom teaching, there are two main factors that influence a child's happiness and success. These are their home life and their classmates. I have taught classes in comprehensives and highly selective independents who you could not pay me to put my children with. I have also taught classes in both types of schools that I would bend over backwards to have my child in if they were the right age. The makeup of our child's year group at school is not something we can control, but we can provide a loving home and help bring them up to appreciate all the advantages available to them in this country and to look out for those less fortunate than themselves.

Sorry something odd happened with my copy and paste so two versions posted there!! Apologies!!

"I had to work my way through uni. I can assure you that cleaning loos,shop work and waitressing did zilch for my cv.

I'm pretty sure the same won't give my DC a leg up if applying for top jobs when in direct competition from rich kids who got a better degree due to not needing to work and a top private school such as Eton on their cv."

@LimpLettuce I went to a state comp school outside of London. I also worked through my degree - yup shop work. After graduating I gained a place on a very very competitive well paid grad scheme - I am sure my part time working did help me in a number of ways - that and the result of their IQ/aptitude test. The graduates taken on the scheme were from all kinds of backgrounds - including indie and including Oxbridge. The common denominators - from what I can work out: intelligent, inquisitive, creative and conscientious, team players. Also very mug possible without an elite education.

I still now enjoy a great career thanks @LimpLettuce and in a STEM sector!!!! As of course do many of my maintained sector peers . Though, I point out that my Oxbridge partner and I do not measure success in monetary terms at all - and that both of us had far more lucrative paths open to us!

So. DCs now go to indie school not for the grades, networks nor job prospects - but because successive U.K. governments fail to invest at all or enough in a good quality broad education for all and yet continue to play about with educational policy at a school and even subject level!!

Anyway. We use our taxed, disposable income to pay to choose the school of best fit for each child. We've looked hard for institutions that match our values, approach and thoughts on education. I realise we are very fortunate compared to many -but I also know, we also have many many MC friends with far greater financial resources, who have chosen to spend their taxed income elsewhere and stick with the state system which is of course totally fair enough - but it's just simply not the case that only 7% can financially afford to go independent - many MC people choose not spend their money on education - what people value plays a big part in many cases.

Also, I have to say that IME relatively few indie school children are rich kids ready or able to rely on the bank or network of Mum and Dad etc!
That very few schools cost the £30k+ ubiquitous anti public school headline. And that I also tend agree with the view that having Eton et on the cv can actually be a double edged sword!!

Rather than demonising a small number of institutions that strive for a broad and varied education of children, shouldn't we instead, all be pressuring governments to reform and improve the state education offer and so improve outcomes for all (not just the MC). If this happened I would spend disposable income elsewhere for sure!!

"I had to work my way through uni. I can assure you that cleaning loos,shop work and waitressing did zilch for my cv.

I'm pretty sure the same won't give my DC a leg up if applying for top jobs when in direct competition from rich kids who got a better degree due to not needing to work and a top private school such as Eton on their cv."

I went to state comp school outside of London. I also worked through my degree (shop work) at my ex poly uni. After graduating I the got a place on a very very competitive well paid grad scheme - I am very sure my part-time working did help me in a number of ways - that and the result of the company's IQ/aptitude test. The graduates taken on the scheme were from all kinds of backgrounds - including indie and including Oxbridge. The common denominators - from what I can work out: intelligent, inquisitive, creative and conscientious, team players.

Many years later I still now enjoy a great career thanks @LimpLettuce and in a STEM sector!!!! As of course do many of my maintained sector peers. Though, I point out that my Oxbridge partner and I do not measure success in monetary terms at all - and that both of us^^ had far more lucrative paths open to us!

So. DCs now go to indie school. I tend to agree with @peteneras not for exam grades, networks nor job prospects! For me it's trying to provide a liberal, varied and exciting education - in the widest sense - and crucially because successive U.K. governments fail to invest in a good quality broad education for all, yet continue to play about with educational policy at a school and even subject level!!

So, we use our taxed, disposable income to pay to choose the school of best fit for each child, institutions that match our values, approach and thoughts on education. I realise we are very fortunate compared to many -but we also have many many MC friends with far greater financial resources, who have chosen to spend their taxed income elsewhere and stick with the state system. Fair enough. But it's just simply not the case that only 7% can financially afford to go independent - very few indie's are the ubiquitous headline £30k+ a year and many MC families choose not spend their money that way - what people value plays a big part in many cases.

Also, I have to say that IME relatively few indie school children are rich kids ready to rely on the bank or network of Mum and Dad etc!

Rather than demonising institutions that strive for a broad and varied education of children shouldn't we all be pressuring government to reform and improve the state education offer and outcomes for all? Not just MC, all. If this happened I would spend disposable income elsewhere for sure!!

you are optimistic about them being able to find a library close enough that also has reasonable open hours user.

Extra curricular activities may not be needed, but they help create the sort of confident young person who would be happy to try for a place at one of the top universities.