Let's get back to a time when students, not teachers, could be blamed for exam performance

It's not just Chinese students. Indian and Black African students are also right up there.

Noble, do you mean setting up a "grammar school"?

Most parents have to work, unfortunately.

I would love to run a school where kids and parents were interviewed and offered places solely on the basis of their work ethos and support for teachers and education.

Nice "perfect world" idea. Yes, indeed, it would be a doddle for the teachers. But, on the other side, would you actually have a job? These days, if you have a compliant child and engaged parents, surely you don't need a school at all with all the online resources available. Isn't that part of the reason why home-ed is so popular and rapidly growing?

"but many primary schools seem to get pupils revising for SATs as if they were GCSEs, with after school boosters, Easter sessions and so on. 11 year olds! The experts commented that with small intakes in primary, one result can hugely distort the outcomes"

Yes

I would love to run a school where kids and parents were interviewed and offered places solely on the basis of their work ethos and support for teachers and education.

Hi noble, I think league tables should still exist as it still enables parents to use a variety of information to make informed decisions on school choices.

I also think that teachersre vastly overworked, underpaid and not given the deference that say teachers in Asia, Canada and Australia - where they are rightly revered and paid well.i speak as a former governor, and as you well know, I am also a sharp-elbowed know it all, pushy parent.

I think the biggest issue is too much admin, continual raft of new govt initiatives and bigger class sizes. Smaller class sizes, less admin, better paid teachers and more discipline at home (aka the herd of wild elephants in the room, or is that savannah) would demonstrate that teaching children is a key determination of investment for the country's future prosperity.

Anyway, back to reality, it will never happen. We all need to protest our local MPs - as they emerge from their metropolitan enclaves and are forced to press the flesh with us plebs - sorry, I mean voters.

trout

yes

I think that schools and parents do too much for kids instead of encouraging independence and responsibility for their own actions
So yes, I agree.... but
I also think that expectation on kids, teachers and parents is too high.
I agree with another poster who talked about inflated targets. It's often too much for the child to keep up with ( from the time they enter education ) but then it's too much for either side ( parent or teacher) to maintain too and has meant that parents and teachers have got into this war where they are blaming each other.
Dd was pushed pushed pushed to get a certain level in sats at primary. Now it means she's being pushed pushed pushed to maintain that and with those results clouding the water in secondary . They did nothing but English and maths from yr 5 onwards so it wasn't a true representation .
I want my kids to get their arses into gear preferably before adult hood .. but to do this they need to fail and get it wrong a lot and they get little practice at this at school . Teachers are running around like blue arsed flies after them and we are being asked to support that at home too just so they can get a grade /target based on something they were crammed for when they were 11.
I gone tits up

I just wanted to add to what I said about the vast content we are trying to ram into children at Primary level. I think it's perhaps at the expense of teaching children how to learn.

II have often though it would be good to select for schools on attitudes to learning rather than ability. All those quiet kids who just want to get on with learning would not then have their learning stifled by the "real characters", proud of the fact they can hold their own in any argument with any teacher.

In sixth form any child interrupting with "Why are we learning this, when will we use it in the real world?" in the middle of an A level lesson should have to spend a year in a real job, stacking shelves or cold calling on phones, before they can return to study.

I agree with you, and with LtEveDallas There are just some passive, dependent children, and that attitude is sometimes fostered at home.

But I also worry that the massive weight amount of content in the curriculum and the speed with which it has to be rushed through, at Primary level is turning some children off and really demotivating some. And that's not teachers' fault either

I also think that the current climate has fostered fear in schools, and that is where chasing and fussing (at Secondary: revision classes etc) develops. Again, not teachers' fault, but it takes a strong Head to set an ethos where teachers are not fearful.

Well one minute school-side thinks not mature enough kids are grown up enough to make decent decisions about important stuff (without reference to parents), and the next they're bending over backwards, treating them like infantile snowflakes.

Reversing that would be good i.e. expecting them to take more responsibility for their own education should help develop the maturity. But lots would do worse without school-side fussing/chasing, so...

The age of criminal responsibility is ten years old. Perhaps we should also treat that as the age of educational responsibility.

Totally agree with you Noble. 100%.

Schools go on and on about their value of teaching children to be responsible and independent, when everything about the culture of chasing and revision classes encourages irresponsibility and dependence.

In my younger (even more tactless) days I upset a work colleague who was moaning about teachers not being able to get her son to do enough work. Son was in the sixth form. My response was on the lines "in the sixth form shouldn't kids be responsible for motivating themselves?" and it didn't go down too well.

Still think I was right though.

Portico - I don't understand your point about the teachers who have missed lessons. Teachers don't just skip lessons for fun, nor do they choose who covers the class. If a non subject specialist is taking lessons more than occasionally that's almost certainly a funding/recruitment issue. I know schools that simply cannot attract teachers for love nor money, so if you've got a qualified teacher in the room you're doing well, never mind if it's their subject or not.

Personally I believe it's the responsibility of the student to fulfil their potential. It's their responsibility to put the effort in.

The teacher is responsible for teaching, encouraging and inspiring.

The Parent is responsible for making sure their child is at school, encouraging and inspiring.

I was capable of much more than I achieved, I didn't make the effort. My fault entirely.

My ds has few more years in primary, but I totally agree with OP.
I know two children who are way behind, and parents blame teachers.
I've even seen one of them shouting at the teacher at the pick up.
One doesn't even complete homework, since primary children shouldn't be pressured.(Heard it from one parent.)
Teachers are saints.

Has the responsibility for exam results gone too far in the direction of teachers? Should feckless students be allowed to fail?

Noblegiraffe, I agree with you to a great degree. Students have so much resources avilable. However, and it's a big "however" - my son's Biology, Chemistry, Geography and Maths teachers have skipped a lot of lessons and palmed off PE teachers or MFL teachers to "cover" lessons.

Teachers are only culpable where they have not taught prescribed content, and taken no fall back option to teach this to the students. Where they have done so, I agree final exam performance should indeed be the responsibility of the student.