Let's get back to a time when students, not teachers, could be blamed for exam performance

Having twins (my own little control group) I'd say that it's a slippery mixture of nature/nurture.

My DC have such different aptitudes, despite experiencing the same stimuli at the same time. I can't help but feel it comes from within.

But then there are shared traits which seem to come more from how we roll as a family. Hard work definitely being one of them. DH and I both push ourselves hard to achieve what we want. And our expectations were always that the kids do likewise.

School has also played its part though. All schools attended have had very exacting standards of behaviour and expected engagement ( from both DC and DH and I). I recall the offer letter from prep school including all manner of stuff about how we could support the school.

DC had to arrive ( excepting disability) toileting unassisted, eating at table, able to change for PE etc etc. And from day one, there was 'homework'.

in sixth form, the teachers would no more chase a child for outstanding work than they would tie their laces . Missed work lower in the school = punishment and email to parent. By sixth form it's generally a thing of the dim and distant past.

PiqueABoo I was not aware that not being disruptive in class was a sign of a mental disorder, but you have obviously studied the subject more than me.

Like others, I think it needs to be a balance.

If a pupil has a complete lack of encouragement/negative attitude to learning in their home environment and brings this to school, of course the education system (and therefore teachers) should try to combat that and help them to succeed in spite of this. I.e. offering revision sessions to children who are unlikely to revise independently.

However, if after all reasonable efforts, it's just not happening, I hardly think the teacher can be blamed.

My results were definitely seen as my fault by my school, but then they didn't listen when I said the teacher bullied me by regularly locking me in a cupboard and lying about grading my work.

Third time lucky > Judith Rich Harris of group socialisation theory fame has had the strong arguments on peer influence for over a couple of decades.

Brain glitch > Judith Rich Harris of group socialisation theory fame has has the strong arguments on peer influence for over a couple of decades.

It's not just about genes, but this is a very key paper on that angle:

The high heritability of educational achievement reflects many genetically influenced traits, not just intelligence: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4210287/

Judith Rich Harris of group socialisation theory fame has the strong arguments on peer influence over a couple for decades ago (book: The Nurture Assumption). There's a good article on all this here: quillette.com/2015/12/01/why-parenting-may-not-matter-and-why-most-social-science-research-is-probably-wrong/

Regardless I have the example of DD where one of her earliest spoken phrases was a tetchy "Me do it!" and she just kept on doing its with whatever effort was required to do them very well. We didn't instill that, it is simply what she does. Her new secondary friends, gravitated to each other very quickly and althought they're a quirky, eclectic bunch, one common theme is that they're the ones who get their homework done as soon as they get home, revise properly for all tests etc.

I didn't do it Miss. Honest. It was her! We'll take the majority of the credit for teaching her to read which was a fun, integrated part of the bed-time routine (despite bleeping Biff & Chip). We'll also take credit for making opportunities. But her attitudes, including the work-ethic, are definitely hers and that's now supported/normalised by her closest peers.

I agree with what you're saying Bobochic.

While I was at uni I went to France to work at a French holiday day camp for kids aged about 3-8. The thing I noticed was that the staff were kind and fun but didn't endlessly fuss over the kids and although it was all day (about 9:30-3pm if I remember correctly) there was no endless snacking. The kids had a drink of water in the morning and then they all sat down on rugs and ate their lunch (massive baguettes with ham and cheese mostly) yogurt, apples. They ate a massive amount but it was healthy and not endless snacking on chocolate biscuits and juice. They then had to sit quietly for a bit.

The staff "animateurs" set up games and helped them out etc but talked to them in quite adult voices and expected them to listen.

It had quite an impact on me. I helped at primary schools as well back in the UK and it struck me then how much less independent and competent our kids were. Lots more molly coddling and too much listening to all their gripes and woes and not giving them the space to solve their problems themselves. And endless snack breaks and drinks.

While I certainly believe in heredity - it is easy to observe inherited genetic character traits in my family - DC are easily sent off course by chaos or even just disorder in their home lives.

All those quiet kids who just want to get on with learning would not then have their learning stifled by the "real characters"

That would be those quiet, more introverted kids who until recently (think it changed in DSM-5 published 2013) were considered to have a mental disorder.

How do families of highly motivated children instil those values in their children from an early age?

Are we allowed to control for genes?

Behavioural traits are significantly heritable, and although there is obviously 'wriggle room' we haven't needed any because my DD came with her self-motivation, focus and determination built-in. We were very lucky. I think the main influences on children are genes, peers and parents i.e. parents are in third place. That doesn't suit lots of agendas though e.g. we still have plenty of people insisting that they're all born blank slates and differences in outcomes are almost entirely about home advantage v. disadvantage.

We also have parents wanting to take too much credit for the successful 'shape' of their child, and/or blaming other parents for the inferioir 'shape' of their child. For instance if both parent and child have some strong personality trait in common, then it's typically assumed that the parent essentially trained the child to be like that, not the significant probability (never certainty) that the child and parent might have genes for that trait in common. Extreme environments and parenting, or rather lack of parenting, can obviously wreck any promise in the DNA but the majority of children do live relatively comfortable lives. It wasn't that long ago when people had lots of children and only a fraction lived to become adults e.g. my mother nearly died of diptheria during the epedemic when she was very young.

I don’t know how it works out in practice, but it's worth asking whether some of our high-performing immigrants like the Chinese are self-selecting. Moving half way around the world to live in a new country is not something I associate with especially lazy or unintelligent people. The culture obviously makes a difference too, but it looks like some of what we think is an environmental/cultural thing is also heritable.

nobel is on the money and, as a parent, I would love for you to run the department of education.

We value education. Our DC are small and homework given to DD is taken seriously. She does a math and chess class each week. The math class is a hybrid of science and logic with the delivery of material being very hands on in terms of being applied rather than theory. We also have our DC in music classes. DD does a great violin class with a teacher that exposes her to music and DS has music therapy twice a week.

We reinforce what is taught through homework and making sure the elder two spend 15mins every morning and night. We also make sure each child is read to or reads for at least 30mins a day. Most days they read far more than this and we keep a good collection of books from the library and the 2nd hand book store.

Most importantly even now at 4 and 5, DS and DD will get frustrated and 'give up'. The message from DH and I is clear. If you find it hard, ask for help and try again. There is no such thing as failure if you try.

British DC have to dive straight into reading the minute they start school. A couple of years learning to listen, speak, follow instructions is helpful before tackling reading.

I've no problem with it. But at year 2, when some of them need to focus on speaking, listening and reading. Not so much

Structured eating is useful too...

French DCs are taught grammatical terminology in primary. Learning about the structure of language is not a futile exercise: learning about the structures and rules that govern us fosters discipline and structured thinking.

I know I am dreaming. The curriculum is stuffed full. Year 2s being taught grammatical terminology for instance

I do think that many DC do not acquire basic life skills either at home or at school. How can this be addressed? School is not necessarily the right environment.

noble

I don't say it because it's the school's job, but if it's not happening at home, then someone has to help (I'm still talking Primary here)

But it's societal. Children don't take risks, they don't have freedom, they don't stretch their bodies, or minds in many cases. They, increasingly, have entertainment shovelled into them and when they get bored they just switch to something else. They can't attend for extended periods. They have instant gratification. Thank God ipads didn't exist when mine were young

Speaking as an Anglo/Indian, I think we no longer have the hunger and drive that we had from the 60s to the 90s. This drive came from first generation immigrants. Whilst it still exists, it is no longer in the same realms as of times gone past.

Anglo/Chinese parents value education and will drive the highest extremes of excellence. Their approrroach is breathtaking. They still have that first generation immigrant culture of instilling academic excellence. But you could not embrace that in schools, as much of this Anglo/Chinese excellence stems from the culture of deference for the highest standards in education.

There is a book just published called Say Bonjour to the Lady with very good vignettes highlighting the differences between French and American parenting. Much of the American parenting is true of British parenting.