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Original poster

Bits of news on the grammar school issue

266 replies

HPFA · 07/04/2017 18:48

Two snippets of news

schoolsweek.co.uk/film-company-targets-grammar-teachers-in-recruitment-video/?utm_content=bufferb7668&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Unclear exactly why grammar teachers are being targeted to tempt people into teaching. Perhaps to tempt recruits by suggesting they can have a nice career only teaching the easy kids.

And another piece of news:

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/exclusive-church-england-not-interested-opening-new-grammar-schools

This is perhaps hardly surprising. Since faith schools are already so heavily criticised for being socially exclusive it would hardly do the C of E's image much good to open up schools explicitly targeting the already advantaged. Still welcome news to those of us on the pro-comprehensive side.

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DoctorDonnaNoble · 14/04/2017 08:12

Eng Lit uptake has also dropped at my school. We'll know things have got really bad when Maths uptake drops at my school. It's our most popular a Level

ILikeBeansWithKetchup · 14/04/2017 07:46

I wish I could find a link to the article - which also projects numbers to take A level English lit to fall - but it was in The Times.

Various associations to do with maths education are genuinely concerned about this, because they think perfectly capable mathematicians are being put off (and haven't enjoyed their GCSE maths experience at all). This is coupled with the fact that quite a lot of (non grammar, non selective) schools are dropping further maths A level - and MFL. Anecdotally, it s certainly true at my school that the uptake for English lit has dropped.

Just one snapshot really.

Peregrina · 13/04/2017 23:25

I think this is a useful debate. A friend's daughter struggled with Maths A level, and eventually managed a D. But this in itself means that she had much more knowledge than she would have done if she had stopped at GCSE.

It reminds me of the Perishers' cartoon which was in the Daily Mirror, with a sad Indian bloodhound, B. H. (Calcutta) failed. But going to University and learning something is probably better than learning nothing. Or is it? Is something half learnt worse than no knowledge?

noblegiraffe · 13/04/2017 22:49

Lots who wouldn't have been successful completers previously would often at least complete AS and come away with a post-16 maths qualification. This is obviously a better situation mathematically than having those people not even start the course.

PiqueABoo · 13/04/2017 22:36

Fair point. I suspect you know what I meant though. I'll restate it with completely made-up little numbers:

If 1000 children started maths A-levels after oldGCSE every year but only 500 completed it 'sucessfully', then what does a future projection where 250 are deterred by nuGCSE and only 750 start maths A-level really imply?

Which children are we supposed to be losing? Are they largely the one's who would been lost via the previous attrition or is this deterring a significant proportion of credible contenders?

noblegiraffe · 13/04/2017 21:51

what do the projections say about children successfully completing it?

No one knows, first teaching of the new linear syllabus starts in September.

PiqueABoo · 13/04/2017 21:45

ll projections suggest that the numbers taking maths A level next year will fall drastically...

Before we launch the lifeboats what do the projections say about children successfully completing it?

Successful=getting to the end with a result that upstream life won't dismiss.

Don't know, but it's conceivable that this is doing some children a favour i.e. putting them off doing something that wasn't for them and would have wasted some significant time that could have been better spent eslewhere.

Peregrina · 13/04/2017 20:29

with no obligation to actually become a teacher.

This is not right!. Personally I don't have a problem with there being a requirement to work a couple of years in a particular job if you have trained for it.

noblegiraffe · 13/04/2017 20:23

If you've got a 2:2 in a maths-related degree they'll throw £25k at you if you just do a PGCE in maths, with no obligation to actually become a teacher.

Peregrina · 13/04/2017 20:10

Maybe with the increasing take up of students doing STEM subjects at A Level, it may eventually feed through into teaching? Those reading Maths at university may not come out with firsts and 2:1s so be lured away by the City, but surely, someone with a 2:2 entering teaching must be better than someone who stopped Maths after O level? Yes, I have personal knowledge of one school where that was the case.

ILikeBeansWithKetchup · 13/04/2017 20:05

The maths exam has just been made so hard, all projections suggest that the numbers taking maths A level next year will fall drastically...

Because that will help...

noblegiraffe · 13/04/2017 20:01

It's a bit hard to improve maths education when you can't get people with maths qualifications to train to be maths teachers, and those who are already teaching are quitting in record numbers.

Anon1234567890 · 13/04/2017 19:46

Maybe we need to improve maths education and make maths exams harder so we can actually tell who is good at maths.

BertrandRussell · 13/04/2017 19:44

The creeping politicisation and dumbing down was beginning when I left 20 years ago. It's complete now.

BertrandRussell · 13/04/2017 19:43

The problem is that there used to be clever civil servants to do the actual running the country bit.......

noblegiraffe · 13/04/2017 19:20

I remember when I was younger thinking that the people who ran the country must be really clever Hmm

Original poster
HPFA · 13/04/2017 18:52

I think the whole government is rather short of anyone with the mathematical understanding of a ten year old. This is a graph issued by the Dept for Exiting the EU showing what a successful trading nation we will be after Brexit.

twitter.com/dexeugov/status/852534216025939968

Seems the D of E is not the only Department short of statisticians.

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DoctorDonnaNoble · 13/04/2017 16:16

And grammars struggle to recruit mathematicians too! Part of the reason we've started keeping a closer eye on what former students are up to.

noblegiraffe · 13/04/2017 16:13

One of the 131 free schools approved yesterday was the Cambridge Mathematics School (16-19) which I suppose is supposed to be like the KCL Maths school.

However, when I tried to google it to get some info, it seems to have zero web presence, and the most pertinent thing I got was a news article from the group Cambridge Mathematics saying that they wanted excellent maths teaching for all and not just for those in specialist schools. So no idea who is setting up the Cambridge Maths School.

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-views/all-students-should-receive-excellent-maths-teaching-not-just-those

www.constructionenquirer.com/2017/04/12/government-approves-more-than-130-free-schools/

Original poster
HPFA · 13/04/2017 15:40

And this:

twitter.com/miss_mcinerney/status/852520878130778112

Not sure how you're going to have schools specialising in Maths when there's a shortage of maths teachers and most of those talented in Maths will be in the grammars! As for Music, apart from the small number at very specialist schools the vast majority will not want an education specialising in music. And of course, there won't be comprehensives there will be a "choice" of secondary moderns.

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portico · 13/04/2017 13:09

Btw, grammar schools should also benefit non working families - otherwise, they are not inclusive.

Ps, I hate the lab ed secretary.....all bluster and out of her depth

Original poster
HPFA · 13/04/2017 12:50

Nice thread here but all anecdotal of course!!

twitter.com/MichaelRosenYes/status/852431381653327872

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flyingwithwings · 13/04/2017 12:05

Odd sportsman makes it !

Interestingly most 'sports woman' come from advantaged backgrounds !

flyingwithwings · 13/04/2017 12:04

The trouble is that some people are still stuck in a world where the bosses and proper professional people came from private school, the lower level professional people and the managerial class went to grammar school, the skilled workers went to technical colleges and everyone else- the labouring classes went to secondary moderns. Well, that was how it was supposed to work. But society isn't like that any more.

You don't think it is still like that !

You could characterize today as such

Public School :Judges, FTSE Bosses, City Traders , 'Pop Stars' Media Personalities Reality TV stars Made in Chelsea basically , or basically the majority of people or families making all the money.

Private school /Grammar or Affluent Comps/Moderns : Managers of Small Businesses or owners and Operators of small family Firms (many working for below 'minimum wage' to keep going)

Inner City/Deprived Comps/Moderns : Zero Hours Contract jobs wages made up by Tax Handouts odd sportsmen it !

Original poster
HPFA · 13/04/2017 11:57

ncee.org/swiss-vet/

Switzerland is generally seen as having high-standard vocational education where participants actually get paid. According to the above article they are still worried about parents thinking the academic route has higher prestige - this seems to be an intractable obstacle.

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