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Original poster

Bits of news on the grammar school issue

266 replies

HPFA · 07/04/2017 18:48

Two snippets of news

schoolsweek.co.uk/film-company-targets-grammar-teachers-in-recruitment-video/?utm_content=bufferb7668&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Unclear exactly why grammar teachers are being targeted to tempt people into teaching. Perhaps to tempt recruits by suggesting they can have a nice career only teaching the easy kids.

And another piece of news:

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/exclusive-church-england-not-interested-opening-new-grammar-schools

This is perhaps hardly surprising. Since faith schools are already so heavily criticised for being socially exclusive it would hardly do the C of E's image much good to open up schools explicitly targeting the already advantaged. Still welcome news to those of us on the pro-comprehensive side.

OP posts:
Clavinova · 18/04/2017 13:24

noble
"Toby Young wrote an article recently saying that partially selective schools (by academic ability, not like by music as his WLFS) were the way forward. It looks like he has abandoned that since the evidence was shown that partially selective schools do worse by their students."

What evidence are you referring to that shows that partially selective schools (by academic ability selection) do worse by their students?

The recent 'evidence' published in March here;
www.nfer.ac.uk/publications/GRAM02/
seems to lump these partially selective schools together (academic and other abilities).
8 of the 38 schools chosen in the study do not select by academic ability and a number of the schools are in fully selective areas such as Kent - these 'partially selective' schools are 'selecting' pupils by academic ability who have already 'failed' the 11 plus in their area (so not even in the top 28% of ability for the area). The study also states that 2 of the schools have been excluded from the results because the percentage of high achievers at those schools is too high (presumably these schools are Watford Grammar School for Girls/Boys?) How can these schools be excluded from a study on partially selective schools because they have too many high attaining pupils and yet be included in a list of the top comprehensive schools in other studies??

Original poster
HPFA · 18/04/2017 13:13

Clavinova I know we don't agree on much but surely we can both accept that saying the entire exam system has to be changed just so the superiority of grammars over comprehensives can be shown is far beyond the bounds of any rational pro-grammar argument.

And if he doesn't like the EPI's stats he really needs to tell us why they're wrong.

OP posts:
Clavinova · 18/04/2017 12:54

Actually I found one of Peter Hitchen's tweets quite informative;
I was previously unaware that the Education Policy Institute was a former liberal think tank. Doesn't that make it difficult for them to remain politically impartial especially if current trustees are Liberal Democrat members and the Institute receives charitable donations from a trust associated with a comprehensive Academy Trust?en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Policy_Institute

DoctorDonnaNoble · 18/04/2017 11:55

Another bloody waste of money!

noblegiraffe · 18/04/2017 11:15

General Election. They'll win on Brexit and pretend they won on grammar schools.

BertrandRussell · 18/04/2017 09:50

I can understand the argument for super selectives. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. It mKes sense. For "ordinary" grammar schools? I just don't think there is an argument for them. Well, apart from unenlightened self interest. And that's perfectly understandable too.

Original poster
HPFA · 18/04/2017 09:18

Personally, I would like to see super selectives throughout the country but if that's not what those places want then it shouldn't be forced on them.

One or two superselectives in each county wouldn't particularly bother me either if only I could be sure it wouldn't be a Trojan horse.

All of Hitchens' arguments are so spurious, I 'm amazed Birbalsingh kept going , to be honest!

I specifically avoided referring to Hitchens's argument as being the "pro-grammar case" since it seemed insulting to rational grammar supporters. He doesn't help his case with ludicrous over-statements like this one:

twitter.com/mikercameron/status/854095152125816836

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noblegiraffe · 18/04/2017 09:04

Tories have been anti-new grammars for a long time

The party officially haven't, but it has been rumbling in the back benches since they disappeared. This has been thrown out to appease them in the same way that the referendum was thrown out to appease potential UKIP voters - to keep the party and a particular section of voters onside.

noblegiraffe · 18/04/2017 09:00

Toby Young wrote an article recently saying that partially selective schools (by academic ability, not like by music as his WLFS) were the way forward. It looks like he has abandoned that since the evidence was shown that partially selective schools do worse by their students.

Peter Hitchens will always be known as the lesser Hitchens, which must grate.

DoctorDonnaNoble · 18/04/2017 08:52

What? That's really annoying he specifically said no more grammars!

ILikeBeansWithKetchup · 18/04/2017 07:56

Donna - but Cameron is now pretending he agrees and that he thought this all along... which annoyed me more than I thought it would.

ILikeBeansWithKetchup · 18/04/2017 07:55

All of Hitchens' arguments are so spurious, I 'm amazed Birbalsingh kept going , to be honest!

DoctorDonnaNoble · 18/04/2017 07:52

Oh how I hate Toby Young!
I keep coming back to the fact that actually nobody asked for this. It wasn't in the manifesto and the Tories have been anti-new grammars for a long time (it's not actually a vote winning policy).
Personally, I would like to see super selectives throughout the country but if that's not what those places want then it shouldn't be forced on them.
(Of course I would say that I went to one and have taught in two, didn't know that's what they were until MN though!).
It is quite ludicrous to spend money on a non-manifesto policy in an area where the schools in existence are desperate for funds!

ILikeBeansWithKetchup · 18/04/2017 07:37

Thanks for this link. Fascinating political siding (?) going on here!

Original poster
HPFA · 18/04/2017 07:10

Wonderful Twitter debate on grammars here:

twitter.com/i/moments/853997076560130049

First time Toby Young has been accused of not being a Conservative. And fair play to Peter Hitchens for not using the "Where did you go to School?" line. But it appears that because comp children are doing well in exams the exams must be changed to show grammar superiority. And one third of the children who don't pass will be technical schools, one third in the dumping ground. So if you failed the exam because you were great at English but not Maths you're basically screwed. Not if you're reasonably off, your child will be intensively tutored in maths, but certainly if you're poor.

OP posts:
BasiliskStare · 16/04/2017 20:30

I can't understand why some people wouldn't want to take maths A-level wink

Well yes but , and User ....615 and others, - yes I absolutely get why you want more Maths etc 6th form students, But - albeit " too many gradates do History (sic) " but if that one student wants to do e.g. History - and that is the right thing for them - should they do Maths etc because it is a more for the "good of the general" thing? DS is competent but not talented at Maths.

ILikeBeansWithKetchup · 16/04/2017 12:24

Exactly that, really.

The school has a decent reputation locally but not amazingly so and has no sixth form, unlike all the other local schools , so far. It's a typical free school, in an utterly unsuitable building (they're constructing a roof top gym!) with no car parking at all (not even for staff).

It's a pretty good case of lies, damned lies and statistics. Its first Ofsted was RI. Best results in the town is not much to speak of, especially since we are a borough. The two schools outside the town but in the borough get markedly better results. It's a funny old town with now a mish mash of upper schools, 11- 18 schools, 11- 16 schools, middle schools, 9 - 16 schools, and several private schools... who knows , maybe a grammar school would go unnoticed in all the chaos!?

noblegiraffe · 16/04/2017 12:02

I follow him on Twitter, he posts the occasional smug thing about Brexit too so he's my 'look my twitter feed isn't just an echo chamber' defence.

Interesting to read your summary of his free school, I've only read his self-publicity. Some people saw his ridiculous 'teachers should accept a pay cut' article as paying back the Tories for the cash and support they've given him.

ILikeBeansWithKetchup · 16/04/2017 11:04

Haha Noble - you sussed out who I was talking about Wink

Everything he says irks me, even if it was just 'hello'.

He did once rescue me from a car crash though but wasn't as helpful as the hunky builder

noblegiraffe · 16/04/2017 09:13

Beans did you see this article in the TES that pissed off an exceptional amount of teachers?
www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-views/if-we-keep-going-about-education-funding-cuts-teachers-and-teaching

Original poster
HPFA · 16/04/2017 08:41

The thing is , the government has left an area of potential weakness by declaring that the grammars will only be "where parents want them". Of course this is a lie BUT it means that if local councils, schools and parents can join together to say they do NOT want them it will at least make it clear that any subsequent attempt to impose them is by government fiat and not parental demand. If schools could do this before the Parliamentary vote it might encourage Tory rebels, if not to defeat the policy entirely at least to propose amendments giving more rights to those who do NOT want them

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ILikeBeansWithKetchup · 16/04/2017 08:29

I've just checked his \twitter : lots of enthusiasm for free schools but nothing on grammars. A deliberate silence possibly. He is setting up a new school in an underperforming local town where there are already two secondaries - both now in a MAT; one has always been viewed negatively, one very positively. I'd be watching that space closely as the new free school is in direct competition with that MAT... it's not at all outing to say the town is St Neots. Watch that space.

However, on the face of it, he remains anti grammar.

To cheer you slightly, Central Beds, which is next to Bucks with its grammar schools HAS announced it will remain a grammar free zone!

The head of my school went to one and hated it. It's the only opinion I've ever heard him state.

Original poster
HPFA · 16/04/2017 08:19

I would be very surprised if he isn't banging the grammar drum now.

The people I would really shoot in this debate are those Heads saying "Well, of course I don't want to become a grammar but I may have to to stop someone else doing it" Not only is this the feeble excuse of anyone who has ever collaborated with a policy they know to be wrong, but its also clearly untrue. If Heads of existing schools really don't want to become selective they need to band together, form a "Grammar-free zone" and make it public. If a Head refuses to join at least it will stop them using this pathetic excuse.

Not strictly relevant but I came across this school in Singapore

www.cscollege.gov.sg/Knowledge/Pages/The-Story-of-Northlight-A-School-of-Opportunities-and-Possibilities.aspx

It's a specialized school that caters for the children in Singapore who don't pass the PLE (that's about 2.5 % - don't know how to match that with their English cohorts). It has apparently been very successful but you can see from the article it takes a lot of thought, commitment and money. Can't help thinking in England the school would be a dumping ground and nothing like this level of care would be bestowed on it.

Flying may be interested as I think it's the type of school she had in mind in her three-part system.

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ILikeBeansWithKetchup · 16/04/2017 08:06

Oh and this headline of course :

Revealed ; how free schools boom helps England’s richest regions

We have a free school in our town that does serve a less affluent area but totally put itself in direct competition with the actual school which served the actual area! Which is now in crisis to be fair, it was before

When he opened the school the messianic Tory party member head said ALL students would gain C and above in maths and English. he rapidly backpedalled on this , and now his website boast about 57& of students gaining above C in both. Admittedly, it's better than the average for the town (which is pulled down by the dreadful results of the school he killed) but, like Benjamin the donkey, I have a long memory!

I must look up his Twitter to see what he says about grammars. he has a shockingly political Twitter feed, which means he struggles to recruit.
He is comprehensive school educated and used to say a good local school was what the town needed and that ALL children could succeed. I would be very surprised if he isn't banging the grammar drum now.

ILikeBeansWithKetchup · 16/04/2017 07:51

I spent lots of yesterday reading that comments page! I can't help but think some of the commenters are on a day trip from The Daily Mail.