Tories shit all over the comprehensive system with a return to the 1950s and a nationwide 11+

HPFA, that sounds a great idea to stop the bright kids having to worry about being the know-it-alls. We also needs a system that allows the bright children to be stretched as well. Giving them an extra set of questions and calling it sideways extension just isn't enough.

I went to a Grammar and it was excellent. Yes I was distinctly average in a sea of very intelligent children, but it definitely lifted my game to the best I could be.

I have no idea if my children would pass an entrance exam to a Grammar but I'd be very pleased if they did.

My youngest in the mixed ability school seems to rather like being thought of as clever. That wouldn't have happened in the grammar and it has boosted his confidence. In fact he recently said to me 'I didn't realise I was clever until I started here'. It's not always a problem - can benefit bright but non-genius children. His school has a very mixed social intake as well btw - he also gets called posh but seems quite happy about that as well!

I remember being at secondary school and having to pretend I didn't know answers to questions to prevent being teased.

A parent on the Gifted and Talented thread said that at her child' school they introduced a system whereby merits that children earned went towards a class reward rather than to the individual. Said it had transformed things for her kid, suddenly the rest of the class was begging him to answer hard questions because they all benefited.

I do wonder if we'd poured all our energy into finding brilliant solutions like this over the years to issues around the most able in comps we'd have found the solution long ago. Comp supporters can't discuss the issue because they will be drowned out by people screaming "bring back grammars" and grammar supporters have an interest in exaggerating the extent of the issue.

A grammar school isn't really like a private school TBH troubleinsnowland.

I don't live in a grammar school area and didn't when I was a child either so I have no experience of them. I don't understand what is wrong with the grammar system for children who are exceptionally bright. My child started year 7 this year, and was fortunate enough to get a scholarship to a good private school. We've realised how bored she has been at primary school. The school is giving her lots of extension work, her peers are mostly at her level and she has regained her love for learning. she is starting to question things again, an aspect of her personality that we haven't seen for years. I know all good state schools should provide this environment for every child no matter what their level but they don't.
I remember being at secondary school and having to pretend I didn't know answers to questions to prevent being teased. This did settle down as I got older and we were split into classes or Olevels, CSEs or BTECs (the more hands on subjects such as secretarial skills, childcare etc). Maybe the whole system needs an overhaul again.

Even if you get rid of all grammar schools, there will still be selection: religion, paying for private schools.

At least grammar schools are secular

Incidentally the grammar ds2 attends is a superselective so has less of an impact on the surrounding schools than having a fully selective system. If the system was going to be changed in our area I'd rather the grammars were abolished than increased.

I have 3 children in a special school, a grammar and a mixed ability school. No rioting that I've noticed. The grammar probably comes closest (all boys).

Having a child at grammar I'm not sure why people get so excited by them. Too many of the teachers are unpleasant, there's arrogance to the place, the teaching isn't inspiring. Of course they get results because parents like me sit on little Johnny when it gets to close to public exam time.

I have been much more impressed by the teaching in my youngest son's mixed ability school - and he loves school - the actual school - and had great relationships with his teachers. Ds2 likes his mates at school but growls about the rest of it.

TM is just awful. She is so out of touch it's terrifying.

*PS have you ever heard of a PRU ?

we need 10 times as many PRU places for comprehensives to work, and we need for them to take referrals for 10 times longer.*

This.

Permanent exclusions are starting to rocket as once they are permanently excluded they are the LA's problem, not the schools.

Where are you going to get enough teachers to teach in them given that we are losing teachers at a rate of knots from naice comps.

Maybe the ex-soldiers-into-teachers option will come to fruition and they will turn into reform schools.

And so the wheel turns.

But at least the grammar school kids will be OK.

We moved away from Kent deliberately to get away from the grammar system. Despite the fact that our dcs would probably be smart enough to get a place if we tutored themto the hilt (which we can afford).

Our new town has good comprehensive schools. Funnily enough the one which is most popular is the one renown for its sports provision.

Grammar schools were introduced when the country's demographic was very different. We had a lager proportion of working class manual workers and this gave them a chance to get a better education.

Now we have a much larger "middle class"although inequality is spreading again.

Anyway by the time you get to secondary school, your life chances are cemented. Better to spend money targeting early years education where evidence has shown that changes can be made to overcome life chances.

If you want a Grammar then move near one and leave the rest of us alone.

Love it!!

BRING BACK SECONDARY MODERNS. They are fab.

No ?? Don't see that headline much do we. Because people pushing for Grammars never dream their little precious will ever have to go to a SM. So let's have these schools where 10% of kids will get all the good teachers (think that's what's being insinuated), and leave the other ones to, well rot.
Not sure where all the rioting Comps are, and not sure why anyone would think badly behaved kids should just be shipped out. Maybe teach them to behave and be useful members of society might be more cost effective.
I think very very few schools will chose to convert as teachers are a pretty militant lot and understand what is best for their students (weird that government didn't ask their opinion about all this).
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Comps work for everyone. Late developers, kids who lose their way, bright, sporty, arty, whatever. If you want a Grammar then move near one and leave the rest of us alone.

Off to teach 150 kids today, all abilities, and I love that bit of my job (the rest not so much these days)

brightest and best children

I like you Infinite. I always prefer the pro-grammar supporters who are honest about this. Much prefer to "comprehensives/secondary moderns are brilliant for the right (i.e other people's) children.

Mumski

According to this Yougov poll 34% of people support new grammars. The percentage among people of parental age was even lower (from memory about 25%?) - it's in the full tables somewhere.

yougov.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/grammar-school-fans-know-theyre-worse-for-less-abl/

I get the impression that the pro-grammar supporters don't think there should be a mechanism by which people keep an area entirely comprehensive even if the majority of parents wish that - but happy to be corrected if wrong.

I'm not sure if this bit of the legislation will get through. Thinking about it in an area I know(Oxford). Which school gets to be the grammar? Cherwell? Yes, that'll go down well with people living in the very expensive catchment area, many of whom will now see their children not allowed in. Matthew Arnold? Go down well with Kennington families who would then have to send their children to less reputed schools in Abingdon. Cheney? Of course well-connected Cherwell families will be quite happy to have their kids in Cherwell secondary modern. St Gregory's? Well, this is promoted as being the only option for people wanting Catholic education so I'm sure the Diocese would be happy to see that option restricted to able Catholics. Oxford Spires? See above for Cheney? Oxford Academy? A school that gets amazing results for its disadvantaged intake who will now have to go elsewhere because since hardly any of their intake actually scores above Level 5 in SATs it is extremely unlikely that any of them would get through the 11+?

What do you think, Nicola Blackwood (Tory MP - Oxford West and Abingdon?) Enjoy trying to sort out these sort of disputes? Which section of your angry parents will you keep happy? Those who would like Matthew Arnold to be a grammar because they think that would give their child a chance of getting in? Or many Kennington parents who realise that their child wouldn't?

I agree with that Infinite

Time will tell whether that something different is a GS system.

I don't believe northern Irish children are so inherently different to English and Welsh children that their system works where ours would not.

The comprehensive system is continually failing our brightest and best children. You've had twenty years of a failing system give it up. TM is right to do something different.

Well Kent isn't comparible then as the SE is v diff to much of the rest of England and there are no plans to follow this model anyway.

I lost sympathy with this post after the first line. There is no nice comp down the road for my primary children. All schools we can get into are failing and the nice comps down the road (which are our closest schools) have restrictive catchment areas that we are excluded from. At least with a Grammar system my children would have a chance. If they failed 11+ they wouldn't be any worse off than they are now. The rubbish comps we have the options of aren't going to become any worse as secondary moderns.

Northern Ireland is not comparable with England
Because as was pointed out by some NI parents on another thread
They have had 25 yrears of curriculum stability
25 years of school structure stability
25 years of admission stability
None of which apply anywhere else

And what a hysterical scare mongering thread, there are no plans to roll out the Kent model and full selection.