Tories shit all over the comprehensive system with a return to the 1950s and a nationwide 11+

Comps do not suit everyone. Our local one only offers one language (French) as there is not enough uptake and they are seen as too hard. Their language trip is to Disneyland Paris! I mean, really? Talk about dumming down.

Grammar schools were introduced when the country's demographic was very different. We had a lager proportion of working class manual workers and this gave them a chance to get a better education.

Actually we had a dearth of 'managerial types' so the government realised they would have to recruit from the ranks so created grammars to get a few, that's why the numbers were fixed at a certain %.

Hi Noble

I am really hoping that the anti-campaigners can get this sort of messaging to the wavering MPs out there. Obviously won't affect those cheering on grammars but there will hopefully be quite a few that see the possibility of getting involved in all sorts of nasty local disputes, where they will be asked to side with one group of parents against another.

I suggest the Comprehensive that achieves 75-80% GCSE that 'lives' in a area with 3% FSM will be the last to shake up their 'happy home'.

Very possibly. And when the struggling school next door applies to become a grammar no doubt parents in the 75% school will happily accept becoming a secondary modern and will not besiege their local MP with complaints.

Flying None of them. Does Nicola Blackwood want to take the risk that one of them will? And if they don't what if someone wants to set up a free school? Will she side with them or with the parents besieging her surgery complaining their schools are about to become secondary moderns? Will she enjoy the LibDems putting thousands of leaflets through the door saying "Nicola Blackwood refuses to stand up for local parents?" in this Remain constituency?

You are assuming that at least one school wants to be selective !

I suggest the Comprehensive that achieves 75-80% GCSE that 'lives' in a area with 3% FSM will be the last to shake up their 'happy home'.

Why should they , when everything in their little garden is rosy...

First of all which Oxford school has expressed a desire to go selective !

Clavinova

I want Tory MPs to reject this legislation and I'm wondering if this is an effective approach in persuading them to do so. It's fine for Theresa to get some good headlines in the Daily Mail. Quite different for Nicola Blackwood MP to explain to the parents of Kennington why they must lose access to one of Oxfordshire's top schools for the greater good.

Given that these will in many cases be Tory constituencies I'm hoping this is something their MPs will contemplate when the legislation comes before the House.

Ah, so you've given up pretending you have a social conscience and now you're trying a different approach.

Indeed Clav and this is the point the article is making (there is a report on the Solihull case which you have to pay for so no point linking) -that it's fine to talk about issues of fairness in access to grammars v comps in wealthy areas, but where you actually try to introduce the "fair" grammar system it tends to unsurprisingly not be popular in areas with good comprehensives in wealthy areas.

Given that these will in many cases be Tory constituencies I'm hoping this is something their MPs will contemplate when the legislation comes before the House.

OddBoots
"I still don't understand how there is money in the budget for this but there isn't enough to keep ongoing school funding in line with increasing costs though."

Because (please correct me if I have misunderstood) - the Government's annual spend on Education is approx. £85.2 billion. Cuts to school funding will apparently be £3 billion by 2020 and the Gov are only pledging £320 million (to add to a previous £500 m) for all new schools to be built and that includes money for grammar schools. A billion is one thousand million.

HPFA
Yes, the link you posted regarding Solihull mentions 'enraged' parents in Dorridge and Balsall Common both in catchment for Arden comprehensive school.

Balsall Common Junior School fsm 2.8% 2014
Dorridge Primary fsm less than 1% 2014

Arden fsm 2.5% 2014

I would hope that in cases of sex selection the available places bear relation to the number of children of that sex that pass (at whatever grade is regarded as the threshold). If there are fewer places for boys because fewer boys that pass then that could be argued to be fair but if it is disproportionately fewer then that would certainly be unfair.

I can see a potential for big headaches at appeal cases however they do it though, unless the guidelines are crystal clear, and that's even without mentioning the much-debated 'T' word.

I still don't understand how there is money in the budget for this but there isn't enough to keep ongoing school funding in line with increasing costs though.

The no of 'boys' places at grammar schools is a problem in Kent Gloucestershire has a big problem because 'Sir Thomas Rich ' a boys grammar in Gloucester is to become mixed in the next 18 months !

This is going exacerbate the problem of boys getting places even if they pass the 11+ . The chestnut of girls not having places at grammar schools 30 years ago has flipped !

There are more 'grammar' School places for girls than boys ! This is also not helped by the fact that many boy grammar schools have become mixed. Girls grammar schools by and large have remained girls only , with a few allowing boys in to the sixth form ! The take up of sixth form boys at girls 'grammars' though seems very low. There are always plenty of girls going the other way.

noblegiraffe Wed 22-Mar-17 10:08:51 "many are single sex"

I heard from my parents (and my mum is quite bitter as she was affected) that this was because on average girls did better in the 11+ so if the schools were mixed and the selection fair then they would be majority female and people didn't like that. The only answer was to have boy places and girl places. I wonder it this is still the case and what the government think is a fair answer.

Claireblunderwood

Exactly. This is what happened in the 80s when some authorities tried to introduce new grammar schools, most notable in Solihull. They failed not because leftie parents rose up everywhere but precisely because the conflicts of interest it generated could not be resolved. I posted this link on another thread which' although from 20 years ago highlights the exact issues which would apply today.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/time-to-bring-back-grammar-schools-1338364.html

Green, Flying Noble and I can debate the issues forever and probably will! But in real life who gets to say which of us wins? And do MPs want to be forced to take sides in that battle?

I imagine 'Dear leader' and Momentum would be able to prevent one opening !

Flyingwithwings - I live in Islington (or 'Islington' as you inexplicably refer to it as if it's a mythic place). I can tell you that there are already mutterings of the local academy being just the type of school to leap on the chance to improve their intake with selection. They've already introduced some spurious 'language aptitude' in y7 and y9 which seems to involve suspiciously grammar like entrance papers and they manage out the tricky kids very quickly or move them to an affiliated unit.

I like HPFA's very real examination of how it might work in Oxford and how unpopular it might be. Similarly I had a conversation with a parent whose child goes to above academy and she was talking about how happy she is with the school. We discussed how, if it were to go selective, it would screw her over. Suddenly she'd be faced with having to tutor her younger child in order to get into the nearest school (and one which the sibling already goes to) or face having to send second born to a school further away with the clever kids skimmed off.

If a different school in the borough were the one to opt to be selective, then the school she likes so much would no longer be a fully comprehensive school and she'd be faced with wondering whether she shouldn't be aiming for Islington's new grammar.

All hypothetical of course and hopefully unlikely but it does make one realise that it's not as simple as 'if parents want grammars then they should get them'. As posters have repeatedly pointed out, why do a few parents wanting grammars trump the majority wanting comprehensives. I repeat - there are no full comprehensives in grammar areas. I would also add that I don't feel there are full comprehensives in areas with faith schools. Certainly in London there are schools which take a disproportionate number of the trickier kids as some (e.g. the academy above) take the easier ones by having music aptitude, renting scams and Oratory-style faith barriers.

HPFA, that sounds a great idea to stop the bright kids having to worry about being the know-it-alls.

Yes, when I read about it it seemed such a brilliant idea I wasn't sure why no-one else had ever thought of it. And also it stops the problem of some kids getting more merits than others. If they all get thrown in one pot then the one who gets the most is the hero instead of being the "goody-goody". Obviously, not going to solve all problems!! But seemed like it would help with a few of them.

Academically my DDs secular grammar is about equal to my nieces , but the 'overall' education they are receiving is 'inferior'.

But they're not being dealt with are they.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/405519/The_most_able_students_report_summary.pdf

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/408908/The_most_able_students_an_update_on_progress_since_June_2013.docx

Country

There are three girls Catholic grammar schools and at least one mixed grammar. The three girls Catholic Grammars are among the very best schools in the . My niece from my (brother went to one ) 'brilliant' school .
The act of criticism is based on nothing but 'envy' or more a case of everybody cant have it nobody should !

Faith schools play a crucial part in educating children about life but morals kindness and taking responsibility !

Even if you are not 'remotely' religious when you become an adult , the lessons learned help people become better people.

I also think this 'anti' faith school agenda is down to the fact , the 'left' have very little Hegemony against religion.

P.S i am not the slightest bit religious but would have given my right eye to have gone to my 'nieces' school.