Would you/have you started going to church to get child into a good church school?!

Hitler seemed to change his mind with with the wind as far as his faith went, or perhaps like many politician after him he told people what they wanted to hearand made useful alliances.

Hitler was baptised a Catholic and did rely on (I think) the Christian democrats to get into power but then turned on them.

he later rejected his catholicism and claimed to be a pagan but then on aother occassion claimed to be carrying out Gods will when killing the jews.

I won't deny that religion fuelled the holocaust and that their has been anti semitism fuelled in particulay by Matthews Gospel. But there were also lots of Christians who quietly helped the Jews and many more who did the wrong thing not motivated by faith but by fear. Still wrong though I agree.

DC if I wanted to I could point out that Stalin, Pol Pot and Mae Zedong ( I could probably name more if I stopped to think but they are the ones we have been writing about today at school) were all driven by their athiesm to commit atroctities and who knows they might have wanted to spend their £15.99 on the new Dawkins book and therefore be classed as a follower.

But I wouldn;t because it would be daft and I would not want to gerneralise from a few sadistic charactars to say that atheism should be banned or is wholly bad. Infact despite not agreeing wholly with Dawkins I do have a lot of time for Dawkins and do agree with some of the points in his book and think it should be comulsory reading for people with faith.

All belief systems are made up of people who will represent the good and bad of society.

As for NI well I am not proud to admit that my father was invloved in the atrocities on the side of the IRA and alhtough he was a baptised a catholic and claimed to be acting for his faith he was a thoroughly evil man who had no faith and was carrying out the attrocities he did because he was a sick sadisctic mentally ill man who liked to claim he was a hero fighting for his faith, but we his family with our quiet respectful faith knew the truth and would never condone his actions.

Their religion didn't make them let the holocaust happen and more than the hutis killing the tutsis or whatever it was was a religion massacre or any more than the 10m or whatever it is female babies and unborn children killed in India and China. If however you look at the charitable work people do either just in helping their neighbours in parishes all round teh UK or the work of the churches in the relief of poverty world wide the benefits are much much greater than the various times when religion has been misused. On reason we live in a stable democracy with in general good laws is they are based on religious law, christianity etc.

Lol at Richard Dawkins having followers. And you guys claim you aren't organised.

I found this rather surprising, tbh.

Actually I've found that if you want to find someone who believes in absolutely anything, they will almost certainly also consider themselves 'spiritual' and religious. Thor, fairies, astrology, the world being churned into being in a giant butterchurn...it's all one to them.

Sure Xenia, and Reggie Kray was good to his dear old mum. Nazi Germany was the largest Christian country in Europe, Italy at the same point in time was rather Catholic or did you not notice ?
The violence in NI is fuelled by Christians of various flavours, and forgive me I really don't recall any followers of Richard Dawkins following the Irish Christian practice of using electric drills on the bodies of children. Care to correct me on that ?

Alternative medicine like homoeopathy, healing crystals etc is not a religion, it is an artefact of ignorance, gullibility and wishful thinking. I see how you can easily confuse that with religion though.

As for Christian good outdoing the harm, explain to me what Christianity has done to outweigh the holocaust. This act was carried out almost exclusively by hundreds of thousands of Christians. After much diligent research an evangelical acquaintance of mine has managed to find one Moslem implicated in it. He seemed quite proud of this proof that it wasn't all Chrisitans...

As for people needing a religion, I'm not sure quite how you came to that conclusion. Billions of people manage to get thorough each day with no religious activity at all.

You are aware, aren't you that there are people in Asia ? Lots of them ? Many have no religion at all ?

Most Christians lead good lives and have done much good on the planet as have most of those in the major religions. People find it hard to live without religion and it they don't have a onventional one they come up with someone else even if it's just alternative medicine or something.

If you look at the good that has come from Christianity it far outweighs the bad, on a daily day to day basis all ov erht world Christians mostly silent because they don't show off about it and good Muslims, Jews and others probably do a lot more for others than your average aetheist.

Let me get this straight you feel that I was wrong in firing my housekeeper for using racist and bigoted comments in my home? You can't be serious? Is he alone in thinking I was in the wrong?

Indeed it's your home.
I own a couple of companies they're "mine" as well. How about I sack Christians to show how big I am ?
You up for that ?

You are falling into stereotype so nicely, that I would like to assure others this is not a put up job.
Bulk Christians are all up for "what's mine is private," and "what's yours is up for legal scrutiny and punishment". Hence the fuss over Christians using the fact that "their" schools and "their" agencies use state funds to discriminate against gays, Moslems, Jews, atheists, and of course since you are in NI the "wrong sort of Christian".

Don't confuse my view with being a fan of such language.
My kids here all sorts of bad words. If any of my household staff used that in front of my kids, my kids would be told, quite pointedly in front of the errant staff that this person worked for daddy, doing a menial job for less in a month than their laptop,and this is the behaviour of lesser people. And yes that's why daddy pays for you to learn karate and how to shoot.

Its my home and I have a little one that I don't want hearing those sorts of things!!!!

Lets see she got a warning after she said used the word nigger in my home on a couple of occasions and after saying some very derogatory things about Catholics I just had enough. I was her employer and it was my home and I think I have the right not to listen to that sort of thing in it.

I'm not sure they do, am from your posts I am quite clear that you do not.
I've met extremist politicians, and I'm as sure as I can be that they believe they are doing "right". They see being in a minority as a challenge. Many, quite contrary to what others think see themselves as the victims.

Where do you think you get the right to dicate the opinions of your staff ?
Sacking someone because you don't like what they say is exactly plumb in the middle of the "my rights not yours" attitude of bulk Christianity.

What possible power to enact any bigotry do you think a housekeeper has in your home. Might she clean the cooker in some evil way ?
Did you catch her writing racist graffitti on your wall ?
Grow up, and try to escape the mental disability imposed upon your by your superstitions.

She was no threat to you, and you got your jollies by feeling smug in your power over a weak person who earns very little.

You are only up for "free speech" when people agree with you. A more Christian viewpoint is hard to define.
Would you have given her job back if she'd been "offended" ? Superstitious people see this as some trump card for excusing bad behaviour.

I would have argued with her, attemmpted to change her mind, and not "respected her faith" one little bit.
But sacking her was the act of a bully.

That's why I fear the rise of superstition in political life. People like you, who only want rights for "good people". A set that gets ever smaller, witrh ever steeper punishments for "evil" people outside.

I'd have argued with her

I think the majority of sane people know the diffrence between right and wrong. You bring up the likes of Gerry Adams, I would also include Paisley, these are really bad men and have done awful things and I have no idea why they both aren't behind bars. As I said I get that there are bad people here. Most Christians just aren't like that and you know it.

I'm surprised that you don't know that local councils in NI have routinely allocated council housing on ethnic and religious grounds.

I don't accept the "evil people who claim to be Christians" spin. It's an easy excuse for those who can't be bothered to think or explain why the support torture and murder.

For a start, the Christian definition of "evil" is doing something that you know to be wrong. If you genuinely believe it right, then it is right. (except for a few exceptions like taking the pill or damaging church property which are absolute sins, murder and the rape of children aren't absolute sins,)

The Christians who do these despicable acts believe that what they are doing is right.
They honour those who have done really ghastly things.
Go look up the like of the Christian Saint Thomas More.
A nastier scumbag has rarely walked the Earth. He got his jollies by torturing people who dared to possess a bible in English. He was so good at it that King Henry promoted him.
This is not the case of a sinner who changed his ways, he met his death content that he done his duty.
Wasn't evil.
Just very very bad, but a good Christian to his dying breath.
The parallel with Gerry Adams is notable. Both used torture to further the aims of the Catholic church, and both have been honoured for it.
Given that he was canonised in 1935 by the Pope in full knowledge of his deeds and has been adopted by many Christians outside the authority of Rome, tells you a lot about everyone concerned.

I have only livede here for 6 years and actually I don't know what you mean about the council houses.

The schools here get the better results on a regular basis. There are people here who are bigoted, of course there are. I have encountered them. I just fired my house keeper of three years last week because she made a bigoted comment in my home. I hate bigotry, but it is unfair to tar the majority of the people here with the bigoted brush because it just isn't so. There are evil people out there who claim to be Christians just as there are evil people who aren't religious at all.

The contribution made by the religion is very small, and in return they get a truly huge tax subsidy.
You are in NI, so I'm surprised you undermine your own argument by mentioning council houses. You know that carious gangs of Christians have used their control over council housing for a vicious form of ethnic cleansing. You know this, and since I've mentioned my background you know I know this.

I can't see how you call schools that breed intense violent bigotry as "the best" anywhere. The vast majority of NIers have been educated there, and your behaviour as a region has been contemptible in the extreme.

I never claimed that NIers were stupid.
Dangerously mad yes. Violent in large groups, yes. Murderers and torturers of children , yes.
Stupid no.
To do this shit and get away with it requires a feral cunning. Not sure I call it intelligence, but it allows you people to behave worse than anyone else in these islands.
Who, precisley do you think attack your neighbours for living in the "wrong street".
Huge gangs of Moslems shipped in by the Brits ?

Given that my family come form there it does not give me any pleasure to say this, it shmes me that we evolved from you lot.

Well for a start I'm not Catholic so I won't be writing my priest or Bishop but I think its pretty stupid to think that Catholics condone child abuse.

If the schooling was entirely paid for by the State then I could see where you are coming from but faith schools are supplemented by whichever church or mosque that they are attatched to.Should I feel like I have the right to enter someone's council home? My taxes paid for it? Of course not because its their home. Just because taxes helped pay for something does not automatically give people rights to it. Theses schools are trying to deprive anyone of anything. They are trying to provide a religious education for their children. You would be the one to deprive them of that. You can hardly critise the schools in NI, they are the best in the UK.

You are the one who has made bigoted and racist comments here. Don't you think claiming that a group of people are iggnorant and stupid is a bit bigoted.

PaulaPlumpbottom, why is it that only non-Christians are doing the "tarring" ?
Where are the protests against the behaviour of the church over persecution of gays, rape of kids, etc. Loads of them can get together to complain about gay bishops or "their rights", or to raise money for the church. Wonder where your money goes ?
Do you know what lawyers cost ?

I might agree the crazies are a minority in NI, but if that's true, it's only just. A hell of a big minority. The thugs would last about 13-14 seconds if they were a tiny minority.
My family are from there (my nickname is my real name). Been to NI. I've seen the riots. I was one of the children some gang of Christians tried to kill in a toy shop. It may have been Catholic thugs, but let's not kid ourselves that there are nay good guys on either side.
NI is unique in the world where someone like Gerry Addams who has tortured children by inserting electric drills into their bodies, actually comes out sounding like a better person than the people who elected him.

A major source of the problems in NI are the schools. Christians on both sides perpertate intolerance and have done so for decades. A friend of mine who is mostly Burmese ended up for a while in a Catholic school. She spoke with an English accent, enough that the teachers apologised for the intensity of the bile thrown "at you people". She was quite bemused. Some of my relatives who are quite republican came to the conclusion inspite of their prejudice that the stuff they were fed was over the top.

"All they want is for children of their faith have first dibs."
Look at how well that's worked for you.
You had a gun shoved in your face by Christian thugs ? Did you enjoy it ?

Bigotry is bigotry, what is it you people don't get about that ?
The racists I know are entirely sincere in their beliefs. Some racists I know have suffered for their beliefs. Why does "belief" count for anything.
You use your power to deprive others of stuff, that's bad. That's as much part of Christian doctrine as mine. You never did the "Good Samaritan"? In between lists of reason you should hate poeple did your education never touch this one ?
Did you listen ?
The bit where Samaritans weren't their friends at all ?

"Most Christians also find the abuse of Children a horrible thing and would do "everything to hold people accountable."
That's bollocks and offensively stupid bollocks at that.
What have you done ?
What has your priest done ?
Where are the mass protests ?
Here's a test. Two bishops...
One prints comments that the social order in Latin America favours the rich too much.
Another, is still refusing to cooperate with any measure to protect kids from priests.

Which one gets excommunicated ?
You know these facts, don't bullshit me,

Indeed, why should anyone have "first dibs" at anything over anyone else when it comes to education? Seems a remarkably arrogant idea.

"all they (sectarian schools) want is to have children of their faith have first dibs"

ok...

"All they want is to have children of their colour have first dibs when it comes to seats on the bus"

"All they want is children of their political views to have first dibs when it comes to NHS treatment"

Not quite such a small thing, really.

First ly let me say that I don't believe that you can tar all Christians with the same brush as some of the wackos here in NI. Even here they are in a minority, the crazies I mean.

I think you are wrong about Christians not wanting to here secular voices in their school. I think you will find that faith schools are very often full of children whos parents don't practise a faith. All they want is for children of their faith have first dibs.

Most Christians also find the abuse of Children a horrible thing and would do everything to hold people accountable.

CAM Are you thinking of Mary Whitehouse and Gay News ?
The Christians won in that case.
I've met Mary Whitehouse, mad as a mad thing that's taken mad pills and is trying to be extra mad that day. Nasty with it.

Also, later was Life of Brian, which Christians got banned in many places in Britain, and the Pythons got death threats.

Xenia, more recently I have been threatened with violence in Northern Ireland by for being a Catholic. Quite ironic, since a) I'm not, and b) Catholics have made two attempts on my life, once for being where they expected to find Brits, and once where they expected to find Irish kids.

As for being able to cope with dissenting opinion, isn't the whole point of this thread that Christians don't want to hear the voices of non-Christians in schools they control ?

Look at the reaction when it's pointed out that the major churches have colluded in the rape of kids. If that were McDonalds you wouldn't get called offensive, indeed there would not be a McDonalds.

But we don't tend now at least to get our knickers in a twist about it, more tolerant, part of the religion really, the tolerance.

So if you pretend to be Christian to get your child into a christian school, what do you tell your children? Do you pretend to them that you're Christian? Or do you tell them you're not, but that they should lie about it when anyone at school asks? How do you justify it to them? My ds would be shocked and let down, I reckon, as I make quite a big deal about honesty and doing the right thing so you can respect yourself. Not judging anyopne; we've all got different circumstances, but genuinely curious.