Would you/have you started going to church to get child into a good church school?!

mainlymayday, they are selective on religious belief not on any other grounds. They are not better schools because they are 'selective'.

What I can't get my head around is that faith schools are the minority. As are church-goers. It's not like there's no other choice.

I didn't consider sending dd to a church school because I'm not a church-goer. That's not to say I don't have my own forms of faith. I'm Jewish and I went to Catholic school (my father converted to Catholicism after the 2nd world war during which he lost all his family) so I have a sense of the value of faith but I don't have the commitment to think I 'deserve' a place in a faith school. I would also not send dd to a Jewish school although there are some excellent ones and officially I could if I wanted to.

Surely the bottom line is that faith schools are for people of faith. Some of them are excellent, some of them are average. Like non-faith schools.

Coming in late on this but yes I would definitely go to church to get my child into a faith school - and I am an atheist.

I don't feel remotely hypocritical (just a bit previous - she's only 5 months old...).

My view is that I did not ask for a schooling system which selected on the basis of religion and I am aggrieved at a system which, in the case of a C of E school, prioritises "other faiths" over those of no faith. Having no faith doesn't mean I am ignorant or immoral. It means I have formed a view about the existence of God but has no bearing on the standard of education I want for my child.

If there was a school for committed atheists for parents who could prove they were committed atheists and which prioritised other committed naysayers over believers I would jump at it but I fear there are none.

In my borough, the only decent schools are faith schools (let's be honest, they are C of E schools - there are no others as far as I know). IMO they are not good schools BECAUSE they are Christian schools. They are good schools because they are selective.

Selection on the basis of religion tends to allow for selection of motivated parents and therefore results in better schools.

So, stuck in a system I don't agree with, I am happy to do what I have to do.

Kimi: there have been plenty of documented cases of predatory religious officials being shunted from school to school and their crimes covered up, which is why I made the comment.
I am not arguing that abuse of pupil only occurs in faith schools, just irritated at this ongoing delusion some people seem to have that a faith school is bound to be better than a non-faith school.
And I'm a parent who will be going out of my way to avoid sending DS to a faith school.

Mademez where do you get your ideas from?

Mademez- I would have given you more credit than to post something so ridiculous. I am disappointed.

What an offensive post, madamez. As if that kind of behaviour exists nowhere else in life.

There have been tons of posts since I was on this thread last night, it's taken ages to read. And nothing anybody has said has made my change my opinion that if you're a non-believer it makes no sense to fight for a religious school place then slag off the 'gift' you've been given.

I don;t know despite being convent educated the priests managed to avoid the temptation that clearly all prists have to bugger me senseless in the confessional.

Wha ta silly point.

Oh, and just one other thing about faith schools that no one seems to have mentioned so far... in how many cases is the discipline and subservience and staying quietly indoors rather than playing loud Devil music to do with being routinely sexually assaulted by ministers of religion?

HaHaBizarre my dd church school is not oversubsribed, 32 applied 32 got in as there are other good schools to apply to.

the cathlolic secondary is over subscribed but so is the very good non church secondary and the improving C of E secondary,

My dd is at a chruch school which is a very good school and not because it excludes people - I know that everyone who applied got a place - perhaps because the other local primarty schools which are a mixture of C of E and non denominational are also all very good school.

As far as I know most of the kids in dd family come from genuinely cathlolic families or they are doing a jolly good job of impersonating catholics! In dd class there are a few kids from other faiths and a very smallnumber that are not church attenders.

I think we are a good school for the following reasons:
As someone said below all the kids come from very disciplined organised families as evidenced by the fact we are all at church every week at 9am, we all roll out for the endless jumble sales, prayer meetings, fundraisers and socials. I am not saying that only religious people are organised and disciplined but the two tend to go together.

I know dd teachers, headteacher and the familes of her frinds well, hvaing been attending church with them for years.Dd knows tht if she messes about I will find out and I will talk to the adults concerned. For example she was having problems with a girl in her class and I sorted it it out with the other girls mum after church.

Dd and her friends are motivated by their religion to behave, every night dd and I say our prayers and we say sorry for what we ahve done wrong and thank God for the many wonderful things in our life. Again I am not saying us catholics ahve exclusivity on morals and behaving well but certainly in this house faith and behaviour are linked.

Parental support is very very strong at dd school which is the key to success in schools, we want our children to be raised in a certain way, we have shared values and beleiefs with the school and therefore supprt the school in every way we can whether that be finanacially or in terms of helping out.

But success at church schools does not need to be at the expense of other schools, as I said earlier we have excellent church and non religious schools which means thatour church schools tend to be filled with genuinely religious parents as non religious parents are happy with the other option. The same is true at secondary level as we have an very good catholic secondary and an eevn better non denominational secondary and an imrpoving C of E secondary.

Perhaps the answer is less church schools so only the genuinely religious go which would force other schools to improve.

Smiley Quote "If within an area there were a signifacnt and critical number of parents who felt that it was fundementally important to them, that central to their children's education was their belisf in vegetarianism/naturism/support of Sheffield Wedensday, and they could coherently argue the integrity of this importance and demonstrate that sufficent numbers would take up places at such a school to make it ecomonmcially viable within that area, then sure, why not???

And would you still be saying 'sure, why not' if that was the best school in the area and your child was excluded from applying to go there?

Quote: "Obviously it's not going to happen as there is no cohesive demand for such schools, except from people who have a faith."

I disagree. I believe the amount of parents who want their children educated 'wtih faith' is a lot lower than the amount of parents who apply on the basis of faith. Where an area has other schools which are good, I wonder if the faith schools are so over-subscribed? From what I have read anecdotally on this thread, it seems not.

Bear in mind, those of you who are at present struggling with your consciences or frantically doing sums to see if you can move to a different catchment area, that if you can make sure your kids learn to read, and to be interested in the world around them, and if you can supply support and encouragement for them to develop their own abilities, talents and interests, then they'll be all right no matter what school you send them to (serious problems of bullying and violence aside). And home schooling is always a possiblity - it doesn't necessraily mean beardy vegans with no TV weaving clothes out of each other's nose hair: a lot of 'home'schoolers are peole who club together to educate a batch of kids outside the usual education system. It's not illegal and it doesn't mean your DCs are doomed to a life of "wierdness".

Would appear I'm out of datw with the Ofsted report. But the defects in the headmaster were downright terminal.
I can't think any way of spinning "maths is no use past 12 or 13" that makes him look anything other than a dangerous idiot.
Ironically today was listening to a Billy Connolly recording, where he says algebra was no use to him. Difference is of course that Mr. Connolly was joking, and St. John's heasd is a joker. Never met anything like it in my life.

UQD, to answer your 'football supporter type schools scenario':

If within an area there were a signifacnt and critical number of parents who felt that it was fundementally important to them, that central to their children's education was their belisf in vegetarianism/naturism/support of Sheffield Wedensday, and they could coherently argue the integrity of this importance and demonstrate that sufficent numbers would take up places at such a school to make it ecomonmcially viable within that area, then sure, why not???

Obviously it's not going to happen as there is no cohesive demand for such schools, except from people who have a faith.

And to follow on your premise, if once such a vegetarian school was established, the school were told they could not priortise places for vegetarian's, and therefore were froced to admit 80% non vegetarians, then the school would cease to be have the very vegetarian ethos it was established for in the first place.

(please all note I know this is bizarre, just answering UQD's football schools point, he felt was unanawered.)

still dunno blu - an sicking wih god favours us cos either you dont believe or you have proddies - and thats simply made up shit

DC - thought you were talking about secondary.

Yes, I have been pleased with BHCPS.

snort.

(and god said to Moses "come forth" but Moses came first and wona prize!)

UQD - so, what ARE the convincing reasons that catholic (for the sake of argument and because there is a helpful link relating to them in this thread) schools do better than secular maintained schools?

It can't be that they 'do better' and attract huge nubers of parents trying to get in simply because they are selective on a parfticular criteria...there must be something in the effect of that criterai that contributes to the results and reputation. What do YOU thijnk it is?

(Custy - tbh I was talking mostly about primary schools - I understand that teenagers can be a completely different kettle of fish! But it is at primary level that lot of this fake church attendance seems to start)

Also yes, I think the crazed competitive parent scenario is a feature of London where school places are in short supply, and because housing is so dense, deep innner-ciyt areas are intertwangled with gentrified streets, and parents want to avoid the families who turn thier children out onto the strets at 10pm in order to accomodate punters for sex in the one-bedroom flat.

These are the families (and the one whose teenager arrrives v early for our projects becuase there is no food in his dad's flat and his Mum has locked him out, or the Mum who attacks other teenagers because she believes they have 'dissed' her daighter...and so on and so on. These are all parents i have encountered in the last few days...and i honestly doubt any of them are particpants in any religion that runs schools. Therfore their poor children attend the nearest maintained school rather than the Catholic or CoE schools, and sadly, wreak havoc and scare the bejesus out of others.

In rural areas, the issue can be quite different anyway. The ONLY school for miles around will be the local village CoE school - non selective on church attendance, everyone goes there. Whether you wnat a religious school for your child or not. Does anyone know if these schools do better than equivalent non CoE schools in the next comparable village?

unquietdad/ beckybrastraps.

thor was looking down on the land when he decided he would 'visit' the lovliest lady in the lovliest villiage in ALLLLL the land.

so he did.

the next day thor was looking down on the land when he decided he would 'visit' the lovliest lady in the lovliest villiage in ALLLLL the land.

so again he did

for the third day thor was looking down on the land when he decided he would 'visit' the lovliest lady in the lovliest villiage in ALLLLL the land.

he decided he would tell the young lady who he was

" I AM THOR" he pronounced
"i'm a bit thor mithelf" said the maiden.

Lemonaid is simply incorrect that most hospitals were set up by the church.
Perhaps she might have read of this new fangled "National Health Service" thingy...

Though to be fair they did help set up a large % of them, together with many universties and schools.
But when charitable works were a genuine part of church activity, they took great pride in not turning people away. Schools were seen as spreading the word of God, and hospitals as ways of demonstrating the humanity of the church.

How times have changed.
Now schools are cynically used to keep the flock in line, and instead of trying to reach non-christians they lock their schools against them.
Even their role in healthcare is considerably more ambiguous. The hospice movement is Christianity at it's best. But ever since they tried to stop women being given anaesthetics during childbirth, various Christian factions have been screwing with healthcare varying from getting unmarried women locked up as mad to getting stem cell research banned in many countries.
Less superstitious people eventually overcome this, and every time they do apologists for suprestion try to spin the latest outrage as "the past".

But many faith schools were set up many years ago, when the vast majority of the population did embrace religion, so there wasn't going to be anyone to say "hmm, wait a minute".
The faith schools are built on a strong foundation of belief, and perhaps the amount of true believers has diminished, but the schools maintain their strongholds because there are so many people who are prepared to say they believe, even if they don't, just so they can get into the school.
Until there are good schools across the spectrum, there are going to be people who will go to any lengths to get into faith schools. And there won't be good schools across the spectrum until people stop going to any lengths to get into faith schools and demand that all schools are of a good standard.
It's a vicious circle.
And I do think it is a shame that these threads always seem to degenerate into accusations that those who have a religious belief are somehow simple, unhinged or delusional.

Yes Pimmpom, it's St. John's.
We did due dilligence on several schools, and it came last.
By a long margin.
We quite liked Buckhurst Country Primary, friendly, and didn't have some jerk poncing his ego as headmaster.

The football quote is foolish. For many people, religion was more important than their life. For many it is their life. You appear to be really lacking in empathy, even if you are 'rational'.

Anyway, plenty of people have answered the OP (I bet she wishes she'd never asked ) and as people have said, it's hard not to keep repeating yourself. So I'll be off for now. I'm sure this will keep going for a while..........