Would you/have you started going to church to get child into a good church school?!

Gerry Adams

Gerry Adams is a catholic and about as socialist as they come.

One of our local schools has become C of E affiiated and it means that the local kids who used to go can no longer get in as lots of C of E familes who coincedently are not on free school meals and do not love on council estates now attend the school often travelling for miles to do so. THis is ridiculous and makes my blood boil, as I have said before I do not want to see anymore church schools and would like to see even less.

Aloha, I think there are definitely issues with non-church schools becoming church-affiliated, particularly where they serve a diverse population, some of whom have perfectly reasonable objections to the religious aspect and, crucially, who have limited or no access to acceptable alternatives. There's one of these going on round us, and I really can't see what the CoE are playing at. If the school were intended primarily to serve their own population, and wouldn't have a significant impact on non-churchgoer's school choices, then I wouldn't see it a problem, but there clearly is significant local opposition and I find it odd that they want to go ahead in the face of that.

But also in our area, an orthodox Jewish girls' school, which has existed for years as a private school, has also recently joined the state system. This has no effect on non-Jewish people's school options, and simply provides the children in question with the state education they are entitled to within the ethos of their own community, so I don't see a problem with it.

iain duncan smith is a catholic.
charles kennedy is a catholic.
tony blair is not - but a "sympathiser" with children educated at catholic schools.

at one point recently the leaders of the three major political parties were either catholics or closely involved with catholicism - so we can see that catholicism crosses the political boundaries!

It was the setting up of new schools that really made me think about the faith school issue. I am uncomfortable with some of the more evangelical Christian tendencies, and used to live near a new school that was strongly associated with that particular grouping. And some Muslim schools too. And if I am uncomfortable about them...

I am not sure if I would want church schools if they didn't already exist, I have a feeling that I woudl as our faith permeates our whole lives and everything we do.

Aloha I don;t think there shoud be an increase in the number of church schools, if anything as I said below there shoud be a decrease to reflect the number of Christian families, and I woulk perhaps like to see general faith schools. Although that woudld concern me about causing the schism that divides in society betweem those with and without faith to widen.

It concerns me that the goverment thinks it can deal with the present crisis in education by extending the "successful" model of church schools when in fact there are good and poor church schools and I know this having taught in a good and bad church school. making a school a church school doesn;t make it necessarily good.

As for children's choice when dd goes to secondary school she can choose, I also allowed her to have a choice at primary as we looked at a number of schools some of which were not church schools but she wanted to be with her friends from church and sunday school (which she loves by the way). Obviously the choice she makes when she is 12 will be a more serious choice as she will have a greater understanding. If she chooses the church school that is fine, at the moment she is saying that she wants to come to the school I teach at ( which is yuour bog standard comp - a phrase I hate!) but that is because she is 5 and I have a feeling she may change her mind.

I always assumed that catholics were left wing as I associate Christian principles with socialism, but that is my bias. But when I wanted to get the attention of the catholic community with power for an issue i felt strongly with I was told the place to do this was the Daily Telegraph. so apparantly they are more right wing than I ahd imagined.

For Dc amusement the issue I felt strongly about was the poor level of education I felt students were getting in a catholic secondary school.

Yes, it's also quite recent to be allowed to be an atheist without being tortured, burned to death or otherwise murdered!

But Frogs, the number of religious schools is growing fast - the CofE want to found another 100 secondaries - but they don't 'own' them, they are being given them as a gift by the government with public money. That makes it directly comparable with religious trains, buses and hospitals, which I think even religious people think would be unfair and discriminatory.

A venn diagram wouldn't really indicate the spectrum.

I just find it odd that I can be at such loggerheads with people with whom I should apparently share a world view.

Ah, but there have been some pretty right-right Catholics. And left-left too I suppose, but possibly more in the other direction. Sadly.

becky - you could probably draw a 3-way Venn diagram for it? Catholic in the middle, Left on the left, Right on the right, overlaps on both sides!

Or a Mormon apparently.

frogs, you are the first person here (I think) to have made the point about objection to faith schools being a relatively recent thing and so I thank you for making a New Point!

Of course, this doesn't mean the objection is at all invalid. New ways of looking at the world are emerging all the time. (Not that atheism itself is particularly new - the concept as we understand it dates back to ancient Greek philosophy and was popularised through the Enlightenment.)

The reasons are surely primarily cultural - until the 1950s you would have seemed very strange and suspicious if you at all questioned the assumption that Britain was, and should be, a Christian country. It's only really in the last 20 years that it's become acceptable for people in public life (such as politicians) to be open about not being churchgoers.

(But in America, just try getting elected as ANYTHING without playing the God card. It'd be total career suicide for one of the current Presidential candidates to be outed as an atheist.)

The overlap thing is odd though. I am a lefty, and am pretty sure that this is informed by my faith. But Catholicism can definitely swing both ways as it were. Scarily so.

To be fair, when this came up before, I was using the "political school" thing as a potential comparison. And I have done here too. I only went with the football thing to be a bit more contentious. But yes, political comparison is excellent. Especially as religion and politics have so much in common! In fact, at times they seem to overlap hugely...

Aloha, if faith schools didn't already exist, I accept it would probably not be a good idea to invent them. But they do exist for all sorts of historical reasons, and they can't just be abolished for all the reasons I explained lower down the thread, principally because the land and buildings don't belong to the state and never have.

We're not talking about large numbers of existing secular schools suddenly becoming church schools. Most church schools have only ever existed in their current form, often long before there were any secular alternatives. They are an integral part of the historical development of our education system, and lots of people clearly still value what they provide. They can't just be abolished overnight, just because of the relatively recent developement of a vocal minority who object to the religious aspects of British public life.

Ah, now the political analogy is a better one I think. With the whole bringing children up in a particular ethos thing. Much better than Sheffield Wednesday . Political beliefs are life-shaping too IMO.

I have no answers, because as I have said before, I don't like the idea of faith schools myself.

Sorry I meant to say that we probably disagree

Its up to parents to show their children the best path in life. You and I probably agree what the best path is. Maybe you are right and one day she won't be religious at all. If thats what she decides thats fine, its her decsion. Yours might be an evangelical pastor. Right now she is only little and I have to be the one to make those sorts of descions for her and I feel that this is the best path.

In answer to the OP no I wouldn't. I would consider sending ds to a faith school if he wanted to go there but I would not pretend that we have a faith.

Aloha - I'm with you on those analogous situations. You won't get a decent answer. I've tried!