City of London Girls full and withdrawing offers - anyone heard similar and advice?

No it shouldn't be difficult, only difference is the state schools are under local government control, the independents are, well...independent.

I agree with you dancer but I also empathise with making ones mind up at the last minute. Difficult to be too emotionally attached to a school when entry depends on passing tests and interviews. It was only after the process was over that we really felt invested.

As long as the information about preference is concealed from the schools

It is in the state sector chestnuts Schools know you have applied but not where you have placed them in the ranking. It can't be that difficult to do.

I'd have really resented being forced to decide before Friday of this week

Why?? Indie schools hold plenty of open days or tours before the exams, plenty of time to decide which school would be your first preference. What about people who don't have the luxury of an indie option? They can't faff about trying to decide which state school is best for their child. Or do you think because you're paying for it you're entitled to take more time to make that decision?

That's a good idea Dancergirl. As long as the information about preference is concealed from the schools. Because who would offer if they knew in advance they were 3rd choice or worse. Would need to be coordinated by a central, seperate agency and the schools would need to sign up to this. That might be a problem.

Personally i think it is outrageous practice. If they are so constrained by space that they physically cannot put on a bulge class they they shouldn't over offer and they should use the waitlist to fill the places

I agree. I've never heard of this happening before. Schools should honour the offer letter.

BUT I also think there are more general problems surrounding indie school applications resulting in some people holding onto multiple offers PLUS a state school place, leaving others in limbo.

This is just my view but I think indie applications should be similar to state school applications. There should be some central monitoring system in place. Apply to as many indies as you like but you rank them in preference order as in the state system. Schools liaise and ONE offer is made from your highest priority school. And put an end to this ridiculous system of some children holding multiple offers (mostly for schools they have no intention of going to anyway) and some children holding none.

I can't see how the formation of the contract is on premises at all on that analysis. I suspect schools offer a cooling off because they think they need to .

This is what I wonder Chestnuts. What's the logical consequence to all this?

I would guess that they will make fewer offers next year.

So what will they do if everyone offered next year accepts on the day?

We probably need @prh47bridge for a lawyerly view on cooling off periods.

As parents and DC usually visit the school during the time leading up to the formation of the contract, it is likely that the formation of the contract will count as on-premises and therefore a cooling off period will not be required (though can still be offered if the school chooses so to do)

• to be clear our prep head has seen 'exploding offers' with no notice not deposit return (much rarer!)

@chocolatewombat I'm glad we are friends again .

You can indeed get your deposit back I think but must fit the criteria explicitly stated. Having discussed this with my prep school head, she has seen this happen at more than one independent (and not super selective at that) with no notice.

I think what could sort the issue simply would be if primary schools agreed to write no more than 4 references for a child and then we would all return to some sort of normality... Some of these kids must be exhausted sitting so many not to mention trying to manage dates of call backs etc...I have a child who loves a test and sitting 2 London day and 2 boarding (our circumstances were likely to change this year thus maybe requiring boarding) really was at the limit!

Prada, I think you probably misunderstood me. Yes of course all the girls who received offers deserve them and are high achievers. I have nothing against those who accepted early because it was their top choice or those who felt pressured into accepting sooner than they were ready. What Indo know is that all schools rank the students they offer to. They hope that those who accept will be those who are higher up the rank order because that makes their intake more able. I know that all of the girls who have offers are able and will deliver great results for the school, but some will be exceptional, whilst others 'merely' very bright. So, when I spoke of the school perhaps ending up with the bottom of the list, I was simply referring to the very bright, as opposed to the exceptional - no offence intended to any of the girls, as all are clearly clever girls....just a recognition that there is still a rank order when offers are made and schools would like the cleverest in an ideal world.....hence scholarships.
I expect most people who accepted will go there and be very happy and it will be their top choice. It's a shame though if even a few felt panicked and pushed into accepting before they were ready, and a shame for people who may really want ant the state school offer if they then lose money due to this practice.
I agree that it's a good thing they have been upfront about the practice. People cannot say they weren't warned. However, as an unusual practice, it's still unpleasant and it's the lack of control parents feel and the fact they feel that control is removed from them, that it sup setting for people. Parents feel that if they are goi g to spend over £100k they should be given a chance to fully think and decide, whilst in receipt of all their offers, which for many includes state school offers.
I agree that parents holding lots of offers is a problem. I can see why parents hold their favoured independent until state school offers day, but not why they might hold 3 or 4 or more offers until that point. It is a problem. Would it help if independent schools didn't make their offers until much closer to state school offers day, making the whole window for acceptance much shorter?
Glad to see the 14 day cooling off period does exist there and everywhere. I thought it must. Does that mean people can get back their deposit fully?

And finally I'm not an exploded offer holder for City fortunately. I have received my offer for another school (just 1 independent) and am now waiting for state school offers day to make the final choice.

@chocolatewombat did you receive the t's&c's? If you read it, Yes there is a 14 day cooling off period as there is with every contract whether school contract or not. I disagree with your analysis of who might accept the places. I truly think everyone who was offered a place after jumping through all of the hoops set not only deserved the place but is more than qualified to attend. I think it's unfair to assume that CLSG is somehow not getting the 'best' (whatever that is) by asking those who wanted the school as a first choice to accept. Maybe everyone who accepted just wanted the school? I know I did and so did at least two others. I wanted an academic, non sport-mad school with an excellent music department easy to get to. CLSG fits that bill and I have released two other scholarships at other schools to take the place. If you read the London indie thread, some who sat CLGS accepted SPGS already so you have to assume that those places are now free. With 750 applicants and 75 places you would assume that might be a possibility? As in Grammars, there may be 2 decimal places separating the girls - we just don't know. I still maintain the nub of the issue is those parents who are holding 5/6/7 offers across all of London and beyond that cause some of the issue that the schools are trying to eliminate. As already stated, they cannot physically provide a bulge class so I guess they are doing what I think is right. If they hadn't been so up front with everything i would agree with the sentiment expressed here, but they were very explicit and were by far the most efficient admissions department I dealt with in the process'.

@cdstanding - I'm glad you got through to admissions today. I was looking forward to meeting you at City next week and hopefully that will be the case soon. Best of luck if you choose another school for your DD. I think this has caught everyone by surprise - including me!

I think it's about them wanting everything and everything on their own terms.
To reduce applicant numbers they could have a closing date or total amount of applicants after which they won't accept any more. But they don't do that because there might be some excellent candidates in the later applications.
They could make fewer offers to avoid the risk of needing a bulge class, and run a waiting list, as most places do. But they don't do that because they worry they won't fill up fully from lower offers and that those on the waiting list might have gone elsewhere by the acceptance deadline, or be of lower quality.
This is a practice which is competitive against other schools and disrespectful towards the customers - you could call it a restrictive practice, because it removes real choice from parents. Parents are having to make decisions before they are in receipt of all the information - they can't possibly know about the state school offers they might receive.
Yes, they like many London schools don't have much space and a bulge class is a nightmare...but that's true for very many others too and they manage to make offers and fill up without resorting to this hideous practice.
I should think the school are having to have a serious look at this practice. The fact they have exploded offers before the offer holders open day will probably seem unfortunate even to them...and rather hard to market for next year. Perhaps the high level of acceptance can give them the confidence they need for next year to abandon this policy - to make reasonable numbers of offers,not run a waiting list and if they really want, to bring the deadline forward....but at least stick to it. If people know they won't be able to wait for State school offers day, then fair enough (although annoying...and because most schools manage to allow the parents the chance to see those offers too before closing acceptances, you'd think they could too) but the deadline should be the deadline and those holding offers should be given the courtesy of being allowed to accept them until the deadline.

No, there is no requirement to have a cooling-off period (this is not distance selling, nor the result of cold calling, and is a pretty lengthy period (with T&C's all available) before you sign up). If some schools have them, it is because that is how they choose to run their admissions, not because they need to have it.

Also I think it's stretching it to say that 'most' schools co-ordinate their dates. Yes there are clumps which always do (eg the Dulwich foundation schools) but others really don't and there are examples of jarring clashes (with each other, or with state school offer day) every single year.

It's not good practice is it? I suspect it's about lack of physical space on that site. They also came out of the consortium to reduce applicant numbers.

My question is whether City has a 14 day cooling off period, as some other schools do....and it may well be a legal necessity to offer it.
If this is the case, anyone accepting yesterday could pull out within 2 weeks (which would be after State offers day) and get their money back.

I guess the canny may well have accepted and paid a deposit exactly 2 weeks before state school offers day, keeping their options open.

It is a worrying way to operate and I too am concerned it will spark panic in other schools who will then adopt the same practice in future years. I know that Heads and Bursars of even very popular independents have nightmares about how many offers to make and fear not filling up fully with the 'right' students or having to put on a bulge class. However, they all need to factor some contingency in for these possible outcomes and use their data to get their offers lists and waiting lists as accurate as possible. If they mess up, they and not the children should deal with the consequences.

I hope someone from City is reading this thread and seeing the negative reaction. Unfortunately I guess that they don't care. They feel untouchable and invincible in many ways, which makes them think they can do this....however the fact they do it at all suggests underlying insecurity about filling up.

If I were nasty and vindictive I might wish that the school would suffer and that all those who were pushed by panic to accept more quickly than they wished were either the weaker students on their lists and that the school loses out on the top students as a result of this practice, plus they also experience many of the stronger students who accepted still pulling out after state school offers day....after all, the £1000 deposit is small fry compared to y7 years of fees. And then perhaps they will find that those they are left to offer places to from the original wait list or the new one created when the offer 'exploded' have gone elsewhere or are really the bottom of what they would like. It would seem to serve them right if these things happened.

Schools seem to make a gentlemens agreement to offer on the same date and to have the 6 March as the deadline for acceptance - purposely a few days after State schools offers day. The fact that most schools are willing to stick to this agreement and 'play by the rules' but that City are not, makes them seem grabby, mercenary and unpleasant. Independent schools of course we in competition with each other, but they also often work together and need to support each other and provide a united front for the good of the sector to their customers, the parents. This behaviour just seems to break with all of that and us parents, the paying customers clearly don't like it. I hope they take note.

I got through to the admissions department, lovely lady but.... She said this year they made offers to fewer girls than last year and have been overwhelmed by the speed of take up. I put it to her that this was self inflicted due to their strange acceptance policy and the email they sent stating they were 65% full - created a "panic buy" stampede. City could have held the offer holders open day this week and opened the acceptance list at that point. I am disappointed but not the end of the world for my DD. She has offers to other top London day schools, 2 boarding plus 2 academic scholarship to choose from. We would have seriously considered City given the chance but it's the girls who may have had it as their absolute first choice that I really feel for.

Here in Paris it's a sellers' market and the schools adopt different policies. At the end of the day they can choose to do what they like. I had some very poor experiences - one school cashed my deposit after agreeing to wait list my DD for a different site to the one she was allocated to (which we had always been clear we would not accept as it was not accessible to us) and I had to get a lawyer to assist me in getting it returned.

But Bobo all of central London is like that, and other schools do not rescind offers.

It does make me wonder if there's a problem in the school's admissions department, or if it is just rather weak compared to other schools.

It clearly is a sellers' (schools') and not buyers' (families') market. Not pleasant for buyers who would like to have time to make an informed choice, but this is what happens when there are far more customers than products.

I think the rescinding of offers is a dreadful way to go about things.

It is on the website that they might cancel offers. But have they actually done so before this year?

This would put me off applying for a school, tbh. There's enough stress and the odd mismatching deadline already, and I wouldn't want to add to that unless there was a truly exceptional reason so to do.

And given the number of good schools in London, striking one potential one off the list early is probably going to make things easier in the main.

The fact is that it is simply ludicrous to withdraw offers before their own offer holders open morning. They went to great lengths to advertise that as a final opportunity to see the school, talk to teachers/students etc but now it will be a completely redundant event. Oddly they didn't mention in their brochure or at previous Open events that City only make conditional offers, prior to the offer email itself. I wonder why...

The other top schools are also unable to create bulge classes but they offer an appropriate number of spaces and operate proper waiting lists so that they don't end up having to rescind offers. The City approach puts the children last. They are the ones who have worked hard for months, have sat a challenging exam and have excelled at interview, only to have their "offers" taken away. It is disgraceful.

I'm not sure it is even in the best interests of City beyond cashing in a few extra deposits. The parents in a position to say yes now are those for whom City was the clear best choice either because their other options were not as good or because it is on their doorstep, and also the super rich who can afford to lose a deposit or two. If that's the reputation that City wish to propagate good luck to them.

We had a tough choice between City and Latymer and City have made it for us. So we're not victims by any stretch of the imagination and I'd rather our DD go to a school where she is treated properly.

DD is dyslexic and at 11+ applied for 5 schools. We were very unsure if any would take someone with such an uneven profile. We urged her to keep an open mind and not set her heart on any one school. In the event she was offered two schools, so she went to both offer days and we let her choose. She took this very seriously, including seeking advice from teachers at her prep.

We would have been really frustrated had one school withdrawn the offer before the offer day.