City of London Girls full and withdrawing offers - anyone heard similar and advice?

"I was just pointing out the faults in the system."

But the point is that there is no system (when it's competitive entry, as opposed to trad CE).

So although I find CLSG's new(ish) approach reprehensible, it is a policy they are free to adopt, as long as they are very clear about how it works.

And the rescinding of offers this year may well have reverberations for future rounds.

gavel well I apologise if you think I was being rude.

Every year on the 11+ forum there are posts wanting information on complicated journeys to and from particular schools. Often at this time of year, after offers have gone out. Some people really not consider these things until the last minute.

Maybe indies should offer on the same day as state schools, 1st March....Then people can consider all their options immediately. Just a thought, don't know if it would work.

No you weren't you were saying people should have a definite first choice, should have already worked out detailed bus routes (which, incidentally, changed for us between application time and offer day) and were being entitled and spoilt by wanting to have a week or so to make a decision - rude I thought. Everyone on this thread agrees all the education systems in this country have varying degrees of flaws and this is a worrying development in the independent one, which is why we're discussing it. And I'm not being defensive, my child is already at our preferred secondary school and I'm never likely to be a customer of this one, so clearly the way we went about it, including the 2 weeks faffing and trying bus routes, worked well for us.

Hope everyone this year gets an offer they're happy with - it does all work itself out by September!

gavel you don't have to get so defensive, I was just pointing out the faults in the system.

dancergirl you dont know me or anyone else on this thread so dont presume to tell us how we should have gone about selecting a secondary school for our children. Many people, including us, didn't have one overall favourite and just felt lucky to get an offer from any of the three schools we had already pre-selected as a good fit, having already weeded out the others and not applied there. Not everyone does crazy blanket applications to seven indepenedent schools, every state grammar within 4 counties and the local comp you know. And yes, you're right, knowing someone that works at a super selective grammar, the process there is just as shambolic if not more so (not to mention extremely dodgy) and don't get me started on morally questionable Church schools where my children aren't even allowed to apply.

NLCS had too many acceptances once (about 15 years ago). The story I got at the time was that they had offered their usual number and factored in the expected percentage of refusals (Habs sibs, HB) but, that one year, everyone said yes. They did the honourable thing and had a year of 120 girls.They had space for a bulge class but it was chaos for a month. Lesson learned and now don't over offer. They go to their waitlist.

Independent schools are exactly that - independent. For their admissions as well as for everything else. Yes, it can be horrible for those in hotspots, but I think eroding schools' independence would be a highly retrograde step

Yes I suppose so newt And the state school system is far from perfect either. Don't get me started on all the kids sitting state school exams as a free mock with no intention of applying to the school

"Didn't NLCS put in a bulge class one year because they over--offered and had too many acceptances? They have the space to do it, City don't."

Yes, but oit really the point. Because other schools are not fucking up their numbers, not running bulge classes etc. and they don't rescind offers as part of achieving that.

City's performance in this, and their whole approach, is pretty woeful and I hope they will improve their standards drastically. I note a poster has said they were the pleasantest admissions dept to deal with. Unfortunately that is inadequate in the face of such incometence with numbers that they resort to being unable to honour their word.

There is no indie school process and there never will be, other than for the odd voluntary consortium (eg the north London consortia which CLSG withdrew from a coup,e of years ago).

Independent schools are exactly that - independent. For their admissions as well as for everything else. Yes, it can be horrible for those in hotspots, but I think eroding schools' independence would be a highly retrograde step.

Didn't NLCS put in a bulge class one year because they over--offered and had too many acceptances? They have the space to do it, City don't.

horsemad that is a good point about scholarships and nurseries and I would agree that would affect things. This is not just about CLSG this year, I have actually been thinking about this for a while. I'm not convinced about the indie process running well, what with the same group of pupils having offers at all the same schools, and pushing out those who are just below who don't get any offers, it's far from a perfect system.

gavel no-one is talking about favouring only one particular school and I understand your reasoning. But you could say X school would be my first choice (if a place was awarded) but would also be happy with Y and Z schools.

As for travel to a school - can be done way before an offer becomes reality so you know it's a possibility (or not) should an offer be made.

There's a balance to be struck here and what Dancer doesn't seem to take into account, is the fact that people are spending over £100k on these schools, so feel it is perfectly reasonable to have some time to think.

Schools recognise this too. As businesses providing a service, they spend a lot of money and effort trying to attract customers. The glossy brochures, impressive open days, lovely catering at all working open mornings, goody bags, opportunities to look again, scholarships etc are signs of a school trying to woo their customers. And yes, some are very popular with huge numbers taking the exams, yet they cannot be complacent and ignore the wishes of those customers, because each child can only attend one school and ensuring the cleverest accept is key to continuing to perform well and attract more students in future.

I suspect City have made a mistake this year. They won't have imagined the list would be full before Offer Holders Open Day. Their attempt to regain a bit of control in the market where parents can hold numerous offers and they can't be certain about who will accept, has resulted in a full school (assuming they all actually stick with it and don't pull out for a better offer) but probably quite a lot of poor publicity which might have a negative impact next year.
I would think that next year they might over offer by less again. Of course we don't know how many people find themselves with an exploded offer this year or how many of them would have had it as their top choice in the end. Even if there were only a handful who have lost the school they really wanted, all of those who have had an offer explode will feel disgruntled and that news gets about - not the publicity the school will want. Perhaps they will abandon the policy for next year,mor maybe not and perhaps other schools might adopt it.

However the more parents can express their dislike of this approach, both at City and at other schools too, the more schools who do need to be mindful of their customers, might feel reluctant to use this approach.

We are on the cusp of all this with a Y5 DC and I am so not looking forward to the process.

Surely the only honourable approach for CLSG is to not to allow any parents to accept an offer until 24-48hrs after the offer holders' day (or better still, until after March 6th)? Yes, there'd be an online free-for-all around the acceptance deadline, but at least everyone with an offer would have the chance to see the school again before having to make a decision.

As I posted up thread, it was important that DD made the choice. She had two great alternatives, went to the offer days, and considered both very carefully. This is not faffing.

I wonder whether CLGS are deliberately pointing their catchment eastwards. It is an area of great population growth and they will be first choice school for academic girls living to the east, in the way that JAGS is for those to the south, SPGS (and others) to the west, and NCLS to the north.

Next year East London parents are likely to accept straight away, whilst West London parents could well want time to consider several offers.

This is not a necessarily a bad thing, in that aside from an Islington core, the CLSG catchment is very scattered. But it will impact those whose alternatives are state or alternative scholarship offers. And these are often girls who will make a real contribution to the school and its diversity.

I maintain that asking heads to confirm that they have written no more than 4 references is an easier way to manage the process.

This preference system that Dancegirl is proposing does not work because parents will change their mind if an unexpected scholarship offer appears. Also more reading, more visiting, more talking, more "foruming" will change things. Might as well abolish the private system all together. Having money and a bright motivated kid will always be advantageous. Although I find the practice of CLGS outrageous, it is unlikely that a DD with an offer from that school has no other offers at all and will have no school to go to.

Dancergirl - there are also people - not us, thankfully- who are waitlisted for their first preference and understandably wish to avoid committing the deposit until the last moment in case waitlist turns to offer. Again, City's approach favours those with spare cash.

Dancergirl because I spent a long time making sure my child didn't have their heart set on one particular school until we saw what offers he got as I didn't want him to be crushed or disappointed. We didn't know where he would be going, state or private and I didn't want him to have his heart set on any one particular school which might not be obtainable. Same with the state options. Therefore it was only on the last Friday of the term that we knew what was actually a realistic option and I wanted half term to discuss the options with him out of the three offers he got (we had no idea if he'd get any), check travel options, find out which he preferred after deliberately not asking that question beforehand and keeping everything neutral, and go to the offer holder days AFTER HALF TERM for the FIRST LOOK at the schools that he might actually be able to go to as a known quantity rather than an abstract possibility. I have multiple children, a full-time job and was about to commit to spending hundreds of thousands of pounds of my hard earned cash so I can assure you, there was no "faffing around" involved!

Um. Not such a good idea if you are in need of bursary or scholarship money. How would you rank schools if you don't know how much they'll give you? Normally, the indie process runs quite well so please don't extrapolate from one bad actor that the system is rotten. The indies, even before the extended offer deadlines to cover state school offer day, were privately flexible about holding places without deposit.
Honestly, CLSG just messed up this year. If it gives a poor impression of the school -and hard to see how it wouldn't- future parents can factor that in to their decision making. On this, they have form. A few years ago, CLSG moved their 7+ to November which was probably an attempt to bag students early so they wouldn't bother with competitor schools' exams in January or get to pocket the deposit+terms fees if the parents got a better offer after January.

It is different stressed but if a system is adopted along the lines I have suggested, it would stop the need for indies trying to second guess how many places to offer and avoid this sort of problem in the first place.

Dancergirl, I agree that it would have been better for indies to have a similar system to state, where the preference order is fixed at time of application. However, what City have done is very different. I don't think anyone would recommend first come first served for state. They should just have made fewer offers in the first place.

Highgate have a similar term in their letters, but have avoided the City problem by making fewer offers and have used their waitlist both this year and last.

Choice is one of the things they are paying to have

That is true chocolate but indies hold more open days and opportunities to see the school, plenty of time to ask yourself the question 'would this school suit my child if he/she were offered a place?'

I'm really curious about this 14 day cooling-off period. Has anyone actually had experience using it?

The contract I have in front of me states:
"Cancellation rights: If the offer of a place and its acceptance are both made entirely at distance by means of post, fax or electronic communication without either parent meeting face to face with a member of the School staff during the contractual process the Parents may cancel this agreement at any time within 14 days of the date of the Acceptance form."

I would read this to mean that you lose any distance-selling cancellation rights if you attend an open day between receiving the offer and accepting the offer. But you may lose these rights earlier in the process.

From the ISC website paragraph 3.6.1:
"The information which must be provided as pre-contract information depends on whether the contract is either: (i) a distance contract; (ii) an off-premises contract; or (iii) an on-premises contract. We expect that, where schools customarily meet the parents and/or interview or otherwise meet/assess the pupil (even if there are occasional exceptions where no face-to-face meeting happens), the contracts subsequently entered into are generally going to be 'on premises' contracts under the CCRs – but this may depend: see Farrer & Co note The School-Parent Contract: 'Distance Contracts' & Cancellation Rights…?"

This implies that ISC have legal advice that the 14 day cooling-off period doesn't apply in most cases of independent school acceptances.

I do think that because people are paying they feel more entitled to have time to choose. Choice is one of the things they are paying to have.

I agree that the way things have moved is crazy. Putting kids in for 5+ schools, holding onto all offers until the last possible moment, schools having exploding waiting lists. All a bit mad.

The reality is though that this is a market. Schools are parents are in competition with each other for places. There probably are things which could be done to reduce all the hysteria but schools would have to be willing to do-operate and not feel they would lose out, and also not be seen to be colluding. Schools would also have to be confident that their paying customers would be happy.