City of London Girls full and withdrawing offers - anyone heard similar and advice?

I think the number of candidates to all schools has risen. This is what I understand from every admissions tutor I have spoken to.

Parents are aware that the competition for places has risen because the number of people looking for places has. The effect is magnified because then parents feel the need to apply for a larger number of schools to ensure they get one. Many of the London schools we're talking about did not have any where near 10:1 candidate:offer ratios 10 years ago.

The admissions process has become an enormous effort both for parents, students and schools. Imagine organising 1300 student exams to get 150 students.

The issue here is that schools can choose how to deal with the issue and they can choose a policy that makes their process easier, shorter and more certain for them. That is exactly what City has done, in the full knowledge that their results will continue to drive more high quality and able candidates to them than they need. They don't need to keep the wider offer holder community happy and so they don't bother.

Other schools have higher standards which they apply to students that may well choose other schools as their final choice. They have higher moral standards, in my opinion.

I don't think it is harder for families waiting on bursaries. We waited on a bursary and the equation is simple - dos we get a big bursary offer or not, if we didn't then we can't accept the place, if we did then we accept it ASAP. I agree that waiting on state school offers is more of an issue. Up here in the north you do have some idea whether you will get the grammar school place based on your child's test score and any other relevant criteria so that helps a little. We are fortunate though that the state school offers and independent school offers all arrive within a couple of days of each other and as far as I know there are no exploding offers. We still made our decision straight away and informed the schools so that other children were not languishing on waiting lists whilst we greedily hold onto three offers.
Even waiting on a bursary alongside state school offers it makes sense to discuss with your child his order of preference and explain that you will only be able to accept certain offers if you get a big enough bursary, so what is the back up plan. Children of that age and ability are capable of understanding that.

I'd love to know how many places they over offered. But, I am sure they will never tell.

It's easy if you are just looking at private schools and know your personal ranking. Much harder for families waiting to hear on scholarships or state schools. Of course, hefty scholarships and free state schools would mean that it would still make rational sense to just walk away from your deposit as a sunk cost.

"Any child offered a place should accept immediately and not wait until the end date."

Only if they want the place! (Obviously if they don't, they won't mind when the offer explodes.)

But I imagine that is what dparents will do next year -but what happens if they still get 'over acceptance' on the first day?

I have a dd at City and it is a great school. Eldest dd who has left achieved 10 A at GCSE and As and A at A'level. Any child offered a place should accept immediately and not wait until the end date.

but the overoffering itself is result of explosion in number of exams sat by children (five, six, seven in some cases) and subsequent number of places held after results are out. From talking to admissions at a couple of schools, lots of people sit on these places and never even bother to respond they won't take it even when their choice is made

don't get me wrong, I agree exploding offers are not great practice. But putting myself in their shoes, selecting on the basis of who really /wants/ it as a priority choice doesn't sound this ridiculous

the state offers deadline is another issue, but we know first hand someone who was able to recover their deposit in that case (although different school than the one discussed in here)

Alejandro - it's not dithering that has caused this but overoffering on what seems a very large scale. For dithering, they could just have a shorter decision time, but then they'd have to make fewer offers.

mixed bag there in my opinion

obviously, this is an another layer of unneeded stress in a process that's already really painful to go through, and I understand the frustration of parents who felt they needed more time to make their decision

on the other hand, if we are all being honest with ourselves for a second, the 'juggling with offers' thing has gone a bit overboard on the parents side, and I don't begrudge schools for trying to do what's right for them. Going into the process, we made sure we went into the process knowing beforehand which schools had our preference, and accepting on that basis (exploding offers have been happening in a few schools before this year, City and Highgate IIRC)

it's not great practice, and they could be a bit more fair-play about it, but as long as the school is transparent about this, both in writing and at the various meeting points, it doesn't strike me as particularly egregious that they seek to reduce the cost to them of endless dithering on the parents' end

just my 2c

The people who this will hit hardest are those who cannot afford to lose a deposit.

And that might not be those hoping for a state school offer (as the expense hits now, but the savings over the secondary career make it possible to reframe it as a necessary cost of having a fallback).

Meanwhile, Eastlondmum (and others affected), I hope your dds are happy with their other options, and looking forward to the weekend!

Yes, I think the next iteration in this process must be that many dparents accept on day 1 next year.

And as a pp below said this might actually give the most utilitarian outcome - those who are keenest will accept, and "those who don't accept straight away knowing that they are risking their place can't have liked it that much anyway" - sort of thing.

As long as everyone knows the position - including the first time applicants, those without prep school advice, etc.

But this utilitarian analysis doesn't take into account the dparents waiting to see if they have a state school place. Not sure how you factor that in.

Best bums, not next bum so!

Dancer, the schools don't want to go down their wait list unless they have to. People on the wait list have got lower scores than those offered places immediately. Those on wait lists might be very clever still for the big name schools, but for those that are a bit less selective and not quite so popular, there can be a big difference in ability between the top performers and those they may have to offer to if using a wait list...and that will affect results in the future. Scholarships are largely used to entice the top performers to choose that school instead of another. So it's not just about bums on seats, but getting the next bums, if you know what I mean.
The indies know that often it's harder to get the state school offer to the super selective than to themselves, plus of course lots of people can only afford the indie with huge sacrifices, so given the choice will go for the state school. If the offers came on the same day, the indies would lose a number of those fantastic candidates who go for the free option. Some of those fantastic candidates who might really have preferred a state offer and for whom City will be a struggle financially for 7 years will have been drawn into City by the early offer, perhaps a scholarship, the pressure to accept and the uncertainty of getting the state school offer. city wants them to feel that 'a bird in the hand' is really worth something.....but the bird can be withdrawn and you could be left with nothing.

We might sit for City next year - this thread has been very informative as to their approach
I have a Y7 child and we waited until the state offers before making our decision with him

Empress, I'm sure lots of people will feel like you.
There will also be some people who are put off by what has happened this year if it becomes widely known....and these things do get about. However, there will be others who are so panic stricken by the whole 11+ thing that even thought they don't like the approach taken by City still go for it out of panic.

PSmith,I agree with what you say. Actually the info is also on the admissions page of their website, but I bet it's never mentioned in any of the bumf sent out with the application form, the info about the exam day or as you say, isn't mentioned clearly at open mornings or events. Quite simply they don't actually want to put lots of people off, because some of them will be fantastic candidates who they hope will choose City and they know that not everyone is as certain of their first choice until later in the process.
With all this school application stuff, it really is 'buyer beware' - it's so important to carefully read all of the terms and conditions about deposits and cooling off periods and dates. Its easy to get muddled if you've applied to several schools and that could be costly in money terms and other ways too.

On one hand the schools suck up to the potential parents and try to win them and on the other hand they can engage in these cut throat practices which won't be popular.
I agree it wouldn't be in the interests of the independents to issue their offers on the same day as state schools. They definitely want people to become keener and keener on their school and to turn down any state offers they have....and the more times you visit a school to go to an offer holders day, or to a play or one of the other events you might get invited to, the keener the kids and the parents are likely to get and the harder it is to turn down the school with its swishy facilities, if the alternative is a state option.
For those choosing just between independents, I agree that parents could do a bit more of the research a bit sooner. Visiting the schools before applying seems a good idea and getting a firmer idea of preference could be achieved by some....although the scholarships and bursaries issue works against this because they are key drivers for many people. And it is true that once you have an offer the way you think of the school does become a bit different - people definitely need some time to mull things over and schools must allow that. For those with only independent school offers to consider, I guess most must know by now or could have pushed themselves to know by now which is their top choice. Perhaps those Offer Holder Open days need to brought significantly forward.
It's the people choosing between City and a state school option threat they don't know they have yet, that I feel most sorry for in all this.

My DD will sit for City next year. If offered a place we will accept immediately.
I agree this year looks a mess and isn't good, but the truth is, it's a good school, and I would like to send my DD there.

Interesting suggestion to make all offers on state school offer day. My hunch is that marginally fewer people would accept the private school in that case

But in that case it would go down the waiting list, everyone's a winner! I don't think there is much to be gained by putting out indie offers before state. There will always be some who prefer state and some who prefer indie. The difference in candidates' exam scores will be marginal so indies will still be getting top quality candidates.

I am not trying got belittle the stress of the situation for anyone who has had a place withdraw - but does anyone know how many they over offered by and out of those, how many had planned to take a place that is now not available?
One could argue in relation to future applications to City, they have done themselves a favour and in future, only girls who really want to go there will apply and when offered a place, take it rather than hang around waiting!

The obvious point here is that it was perfectly possible for City to do what most other top schools do which is not to make too many offers and operate a proper waiting list. It isn't rocket science and other schools don't rescind offers nor do they need to offer bulge classes.

Yes, the risk of this happening was tucked away in the terms and conditions and it was mentioned in the offer email (which was too late to be expressly flagging it up) but it was absolutely NOT advertised by the school at Open Days. No doubt it would have gone down like a lead balloon if the Head had spelt out at the Open Day that unlike other schools City don't make guaranteed offers, they make conditional offers only. Instead she used generic words about City wanting girls who have them as first choice. Not quite the same thing, not even close. That is the truth of it and hiding behind terms and conditions is a politician's approach especially when it is the children who have earned their places through their hard work and commitment.

Indeed a school that withdraws offers before its own risibly titled "Offer Holders Open Morning" has patently lost control of its own admissions process. That is inarguable.

Yes, they are perfectly entitled to do what they want just as parents in future years are perfectly entitled to give City a wide berth. Because you can be absolutely sure that what City has done will have damaged their reputation and will be common knowledge next year.

"It is an area of great population growth and they [CLSG] will be first choice school for academic girls living to the east"

Bancroft's is a highly academic school eastwards, though coed, so if you definitely wanted single sex the above may well apply! Interestingly co-ed seems to be more the norm for the private schools out east afaik - whereas central london still has a wide range of all-girls. Not sure why there is that difference!

Interesting suggestion to make all offers on state school offer day. My hunch is that marginally fewer people would accept the private school in that case. That is because if you hear on 10 Feb that you've got one of your private school choices you do become a bit invested in it - you go to the offer holders' open day and so on. At the margins, I would say that extra time makes a few people less likely to switch to state if you get an offer of a state school a month later.

getmeoutofhere123

They can be as clear as they like in their literature, but they are in the same position as all the other schools listed here and have adopted a policy that favours the school not the applicant. That alone is tells me more about the ethos of the school than the open day did. [sorry to repeat my post]

Yeah I see what City means, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that you'll be able to attend the offers morning before having to make a decision. Personally, this was key for us as it's very different looking round a school that is a real possibility as opposed to one you're finding fault with in case they reject your child.

To the extent that we're almost thinking of not attending any pre exam open days and just going for the three/four nearest schools with a good reputation and then viewing them after.

It's like Blair (sorry!) saying about Brexit - that it was like agreeing to a house swap before knowing what the house looks like.

While I feel for those who 'lost out', did anyone read the admissions booklet before they applied.. it clearly states, I quote in relation to accepting offers:

'Should we reach our maximum capacity for new intake before this acceptance deadline has passed, we may need to prioritise acceptances on time of receipt. We therefore recommend that you let us know your decision as soon as you can'