Progress 8 - less focus on C/D borderline and consequences for grade 4 students

Dora they are now paying for much easier exams

I also think that if we're saying that the small amount of money/time must be spent on those borderline C/D pupils because it will make a far greater difference to their lives than helping ensure an able pupil gets an A* instead of an A then we need to hold our hands up and say publicly that these are our priorities.

A lot of the 'up in arms' parents are those that feel duped (for want of a better word) by the system. Explain from the outset the limitations of the state system and where resources must be targeted. That way they know what they're getting and they understand what they're getting into. Being upfront may also help fee paying parents, and I am one, to understand that the independent sector does better due to its ratios and resources rather than the quality of teaching. As an x state school teacher myself, I don't need convincing of this but I'm regularly amazed at what fee paying parents think they are paying for.

This is why many parents opt for independent school at 11. It certainly figured in our thinking. One of my teenage boys is bright but lazy. He's easy distracted and lately, prone to underachieving if left to his own devices. He's the sort of child that excelled at primary, easily attaining level 5 but as he's got older he's been lazier and less willing to put in the effort. At a state school, I foresaw him getting Bs or maybe even dropping to Cs. Not because of poor teaching but rather his laziness coupled with their lack of resources. And indeed at the end of Y7 he had dropped down to a B grade. His (independent) school were straight on it, small group catch ups and the odd 1:1 lesson. Regular tracking and interim testing to ensure he was keeping up and using him favourite extra curricular activities as an incentive.

The new system means that children like my DS2 who are very capable of getting A*s and As but are not reaching their potential will get intervention whereas before all hands would have been working on ensuring C/D borderline students made the C.

pieceofpurplesky
Not sure now.
Yes. I also do English. Shocking difference between what is expected in iGCSE vs the specs we have to do. And then kids waltz off to college/uni clutching an iGCSE grade A appearing much smarter on paper than some of my grade 6/7 candidates who have worked hard, grappled with challenging texts and have all the resilience to study independently.

Just one example of how the state vs private divide happens.

I agree Maisy.

GreenGinger2
You can pull out all the stops in your lessons. Y6 teachers do the same for SATS. Most teachers want tbeir kids to do well. I know I have lots in place, that doesn't mean lots of extra classes.
There's a lot I see on MN of people expecting all sorts for their child but have no regard for the fact that there are other children
I just dont think it's reasonable to expect teachers (say someone who has 2 groups like me) to do 1-1 or small group intervention for 60 students on top of the school day. What about the other 150 kids I teach?

If people want to get tutoring outside school its their call.
But I tell my students if they are working well over y10-11, do their homework and classwork to the best of their ability and revise they'll do well. There's a weekly revision club which a group come to and I'm more than happy to check any mock questions they do.
Going to some extra class isnt a replacement for old fashioned revision.

Maisy you were answering user not me?
I teach English (like you I think) and it is geared just for the high ability yet private schools can do iGCSE and have a much easier route to the higher grades!

I don't get why pulling out all the stops( tutoring) to get kids onto college courses they would consequently struggle on is ok but doing the same for the 11+ isn't.

Should probably stress I have no issue with high quality intervention for students who are working well and need a bit of extra support. I do a lot of that. I also offer lots of stuff to stretch students who want to go above and beyond.

I disagree with pulling out all the stops for kids who havent been bothered and i disagree with home suggesting extta intervention should be given regardless of student behaviour and attitude in class.

Why do you take so personally the statement (which is born out by studies and data) that some high ability children in some state schools do not achieve as high grades as they could?

I don't take it personally at all.
I also accept that there is a gap betwen state vs independent
The difference is I don't think excessive intervention in y11 is the way to solve it and often the people I encounter who shout about wanting lots of extras are actually the people who've got kids who've not pulled their weight through school.

The literacy gap exists before children get into school, the cultuaral capital available yo children varies by background, there's a massive difference between parents who allow their child to coast y7-10 & panic in y11 snd the parents who promote learning and hard work for the 5 years. Independent schools do iGCSE English (speaming & listening counts as does coursework) but my students have none of that and have to do 100% closed book linear exams. There are lots of things that can be done in schools to close the gap but hammering kids in their last year to game exams isnt the answer as far as I'm concerned.

Bold fail sorry

Why do you take so personally the statement (which is born out by studies and data) that some high ability children in some state schools do not achieve as high grades as they could?

Because there are similar children in private schools that do exactly the same but these schools are not accountable to government statistics and do not constantly have the finger pointed at them for failing the children.

It is MY fact that a lot of children could do a lot better if the value of education was instilled in them at home. That parents didn't allow them to bring phones in to school. That pupils were told not to argue about how unfair it is that they have an exam paper to complete 'cos they just did one in maths ...
This is every lesson with my Year 11s. They are set 2/7. Predicted Grade 6/7. I bust my guts everyday - marking the work of the 33 in the class to get it returned the next day, planning purposeful lessons, running revision classes, doing intervention ... target setting/personal targets per part of the exam/writing essays of all grades for comparison etc etc
Yet I will be judged on the 5 or 6 kids who underachieve because, quite frankly, they can't be arsed. Then will blame the teachers and parents complain. I then get a bollocking and a mark down on my performance management.
Intervention should be available to those who need it - sadly progress 8 now means that the wrong people will get it.

noble That's so sad.
That is statistics driving decisions, not teacher expertise.

You get what you measure I suppose.

cantkeep I suspect you are right.

I was very grateful for the small amounts of 1-1 time my DD received for her English, possibly funded from her PPP money (she's adopted). We also backed it up by her going to every revision session going, and work at home with me. Passing that exam made a big difference to her options the following year.

I'm seeing that whilst intervention is still going in, it's less exclusively on the C/D (3/4) borderline which I think is good thing. Intervention can be accessed wherever the teacher feels that improvements can be made or where knowledge need some consolidation.

I'm seeing that more students from a wider spectrum of ability are getting extra support where they need it. It is also helping schools give support where it is matched by reciprocal efforts from the students and not flogging a select band of students, some of which have no interest.

i do think this might be very akin to the 'all schools focus their resources on [insert group my child doesn't belong to]' commentary, in which parents of high achievers comment that all support goes to low achievers; parents of middle achievers say they are overlooked in favour of high and low achievers; parents of SEN children feel that their children's needs are not properly met because teachers focus on the more middle ability children - ie that schools cannot cater perfectly to everyone, all of the time and thus everyone feels slightly short-changed!

I would actually say that I don't know whether anyone, except those who routinely need 1:1 throughout their education, should get 1:1 to push them 'artificially' over a GCSE grade boundary. Small group revision sessions - yes, maybe, for all. But 1:1 for a few and nothing for others? Not so much.

I've got an idea. Give everyone 1-1 tuition from age 4-18. That will help everyone meet their potential.

I find it hard to believe that a child's life is blighted if they 'only' get an A compared with an A*. Maybe their pride, but what real effect on their future?

Of course children who do better at GCSE do on average better at A level, but I don't believe A level potential is actually improved by scraping up a grade due to 1-1 intervention.

And if a 6th form has very high entry requirements, if too many pupils start meeting those requirements due to being 1-1 supported over a boundary, then won't it only go and raise the requirements?
Our local high performing 6th forms only asks for 5A*-C, plus certain subject specific grades. Not the 6As or whatever I read about on here sometimes. (Maybe that is why I am more relaxed about it all?)

I teach the content to a high standard and spend hours giving personalised feedback (which a handful of students - usually the ones who claim intervention) ignore.

Why do you take so personally the statement (which is born out by studies and data) that some high ability children in some state schools do not achieve as high grades as they could?

Maybe this doesn't happen in the school you teach in but would you really claim that students with A star potential in a school in which very few achieve As always get taught the content to the right standard to get an A star?

And would you really say that it is always the students that aren't studying who just miss out on an A or A star? I certainly have many colleagues, friends, acquaintances who have complained that schools target almost all of their resources for extra sessions on the just passing. It is a very wide spread feeling that high ability children are not getting the deal they should be.

Teachers on this thread find it reasonable to target resources at the just passing, knowing that in reality there won't be additional resources to help the others. I get that. I just don't think it's reasonable that the resources aren't there to help everybody achieve their full potential. We shouldn't pretend that our education system isn't feeling the effects of under investment.

I am torn about this, because I can see how the D/C borderline has become so entrenched as 'THE' key issue that it has been actively unfair to those working at other levels - both those below D, and those above C.

It's difficult because the fair thing to do is to give equal priority to all children to maximise their potential, whereas the reality is that some borderlines have much more 'average impact' going forward.

However, while the C/D borderline - currently the 3/4 borderline, will become the 4/5 borderline - remains something of a 'cliffhanger', there are others that do bar the way of specific children moving forward. So for example accessing A-level history in many school requires a high English grade, a non A/A* in a key subject might be the difference between an able child accessing a top-tier university and the tier below, or Bs that could be As may bar children from going to the sixth form provider of their choice, regardless of how well they might be able to do once they are there.

I also feel that perhaps, someone used 1:1 could in fact have a much higher total impact when used 1:8 - so the same amount of resource used for carefully-chosen groups rather than particular individuals could be much more successful. I suppose what I'm saying is, would I, given 1 member of staff for 30 minutes twice a week, see it as 'better' that 1 child was pushed from a 3 to a 4, or a whole group was moved from, say, a 5 to the 6 they need to access the 6th form?

But they shouldn't be at the expense of each other.
Not enough state school children get into the top university courses precisely because some of them don't get as strong grades as they should.

Just throwing it out there that its very easy to say intervention for everyone, but with what staff? What money? What space in the timetable? What lessons should a GCSE student lose to do all of this extra? Or should staff give up multiple nights unpaid to do this (& sod the impact on their own wellbeing and family)?

I get fed up of being asked "what extra intervention I'm offering" by parents. I teach the content to a high standard and spend hours giving personalised feedback (which a handful of students - usually the ones who claim intervention) ignore. I run a weekly after school revision session (again not attended by the ones demanding intervention). I'm doing what I need to be doing. How much revision as your child been doing? Reply: 'not as much as they could be but....' And have they used the revision packs I've given? 'What revision packs?'

If i didnt work hard at school durig my exams theres no way my parents would be on at the teachers to do 1-1. They'd have kicked my attitude into shape.

I wonder if this is why funding is about to be cut from our school's bottom set maths intervention groups?

piece Exactly. The focus is moving away from D/C and that is wrong . The focus should stay on D/C and stuff what that means to a school's progress 8.

Teen what if you Read what noble wrote you will see that the C/D is no longer the focus - that is the point of her post.
Noble I agree 100% as this is happening at my school and at the schools where various friends teach. Where I am PP pupils get maths and English intervention as priority. Others attend after school etc. Other subjects have to do this in their own time too.
I teach English and the new syllabus a disaster for all but the highest ability pupils.