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Original poster

Progress 8 - less focus on C/D borderline and consequences for grade 4 students

116 replies

noblegiraffe · 13/02/2017 11:42

So we are now all about progress 8, it's progress that counts and getting a B to an A is as valuable as getting a D to a C (except for slight quibbles about numeric values). This is seen as a good thing, all pupils will get support to reach their targets.

What I'm seeing: There is a limited amount of maths intervention available to help students - 1-1 and small group tuition at tutor times and so on. Previously this was focused on C/D borderline kids to help them get the magic C grade and boost the school headline figures. Now it is given to students who are falling well short of their target grade, who need the double weighted boost of an increase in a maths grade to improve their overall score.
I teach several students who are sitting on a 3, and with extra support could reach a 4 - the key grade where they won't have to resit in sixth form, and which will ensure access to certain college courses. Getting a 4 would be extremely important to them. They are not on the intervention lists, and not getting the help that they would have got in previous years, instead it's going to other, higher (and lower) achieving students. The grade that is important to them is no longer important to the school.

In practice 'more support for all' seems to mean 'less support for those to whom it really matters'.

OP posts:
IDK · 15/02/2017 11:51

SEN has always been a neglected area.

Don't I know it. My parents had a similar response from school with DBro (different but related disability) nearly 50 years ago. It looks like school attitude hasn't improved much since then.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 15/02/2017 11:26

IDK Labour were pumping money into education - we weren't all teaching 5 lessons a week and swimming in SEN training. We had more money for textbooks and slightly smaller class sizes.

SEN has always been a neglected area.

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IDK · 15/02/2017 11:18

That's because that is, unfortunately the reason.

Sorry, noble, I'm not buying that. It was a few years ago, after Labour had been pumping money into education like it was going out of fashion.

Fourmantent · 15/02/2017 11:15

Many parents will pay for 1:1 with tutors to get their kids the best grades possible. Its pretty rife around here. Some of these are C/D students but others are definitely A/A* and A Level students. My DS wouldn't have got his C in maths without it. The same maths tutor got a friend's daughter through her maths A Level.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 15/02/2017 11:03

It's easy to blame it on lack of resources.

That's because that is, unfortunately the reason. Lack of resources to train staff, lack of time for staff to sit down and think about individual students, lack of prompting to consider SEN, lack of SEN staffing which would enable them to be proactive rather than reactive.

And it's only going to get worse.

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roundaboutthetown · 15/02/2017 11:01

IDK - my db went to a grammar school where that attitude prevailed. His issues were all put down to laziness, not paying attention, not caring sufficiently about presentation of work etc, as it was recognised that he was extremely bright. That's a matter of poor understanding of specific learning disabilities, not a need for 1-1 attention in order to bump up grades.

IDK · 15/02/2017 11:00

Identifying SEN is another area in which state schools don't have enough resources - see the recent headlines about 20% of kids in private schools getting extra time.

I know, I'm on that thread too.
It's easy to blame it on lack of resources. DS's SpLD was 'diagnosed' on here because several kind posters took the time to think about him. It didn't cost anything. The Ed Psych's report cost money but I thought that it was worth it for DS's future. I paid for it when it became obvious that the school weren't going to do anything despite GCSE and then AS results being disappointing.

IDK · 15/02/2017 10:52

Top grades = teacher input + ability + student effort/attitude/revision.

Unfortunately, what sometimes happens is kids coast along and dont pull their weight and then in y11 suddenly feel entitled to an A. That's not the way life works.

See what I mean when I say that the attitude still prevails!
DS's school was one of those who select 10% of their pupils. DS got in by academic selection. He was at one stage, on their Oxbridge watchlist. He was underperforming and nobody did anything. They probably put it down to "effort/attitude", not thinking that his effort/attitude was being caused by a SpLD that they hadn't spotted. Wouldn't your attitude slip if you spent all day struggling against a brick wall.

For the record when he got to University and they made provision for him, he did fine.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 15/02/2017 10:46

IDK if he needed extra time in exams, then the kind of intervention which we are now discussing wouldn't have helped him anyway.

Identifying SEN is another area in which state schools don't have enough resources - see the recent headlines about 20% of kids in private schools getting extra time.

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MaisyPops · 15/02/2017 10:37

What sort of pathetic exam system do we have, where it is impossible for children to get top grades without serious hand-holding and bottom wiping?

Totally possible to do well withouy all that. I did very well at school through listening to my teachers and working hard (normal comp).

In my experience from my ow students, the ones who get the top grades are the ones who are very able, who complete all the extension work I give, homework is routinely done to an excellent standard (i give my top end more challenging tasks), they are brilliant in class, ask if theyre unsure, attend revision club and do their own revision at home.

Top grades = teacher input + ability + student effort/attitude/revision.

Unfortunately, what sometimes happens is kids coast along and dont pull their weight and then in y11 suddenly feel entitled to an A. That's not the wya life works.

(One 6th former this term told me it was outrageous when I told him that uni lecturers didnt do intervention & allpw students to submit late 'because they were busy'. His words "but we're paying for a degree!" Nope. You are paying to attend university. The degree you get depends on your attitude)

IDK · 15/02/2017 10:32

proper provision

Extra time in exams. I am not aware that he got any special help in lessons. I'm not aware that the school did much apart from admit in the UCAS reference that his GCSE and AS Levels had been compromised.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 15/02/2017 10:22

He did get A*/A once proper provision was in place.

Out of interest, what was this proper provision?

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IDK · 15/02/2017 10:11

Yes, it was a while ago and it still rankles. If it wasn't for the help on MN, DS wouldn't be where he is today.
I'm not sure what your point is but the attitude of "stop bleating, there are others more deserving than you" still prevails today.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 15/02/2017 10:09

Yes, people do seem to think that progress 8 meaning that progress is measured for all students is the first time that schools have been measured on the progress of A students as much as C students, whereas in fact the school Value Added score always did this, it's just the main focus was on the 5A-C measure.

OP posts:
Original poster
noblegiraffe · 15/02/2017 10:06

I think that most if not all children will do better in a subject if they have dedicated 1-1 support and personalised feedback, so there will be kids at any grade who would benefit from intervention.

The problem at the higher grade is that if they got it by 1-1 intervention and then go onto A-level where they're expected to work at that same level by independent work and ability then they may flounder.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 15/02/2017 10:04

"My DS was getting above the magic C so got no further attention"

I'm presuming this was a while ago?

IDK · 15/02/2017 10:02

I do find the notion that a child needs 1-1 intervention in order to get an A* a bit bizarre.

I'm not asking for 1-1 intervention. I'm asking for a bit of consideration, for a teacher to wonder why a pupil is underperforming. My DS was getting above the magic C so got no further attention. Nobody, even when I flagged it up, was wondering why his score was below his potential. Re-reading his reports I realised that they were loads of comments that he was great in class but nobody was bothered that he wasn't getting the exam grades to match.

roundaboutthetown · 15/02/2017 09:52

I do find the notion that a child needs 1-1 intervention in order to get an A* a bit bizarre. If this is the case, we have a huge problem on our hands - why are state school teachers not teaching their top set classes to a sufficient level to enable their bright students to get the top grades on the back of that?! What sort of pathetic exam system do we have, where it is impossible for children to get top grades without serious hand-holding and bottom wiping?

BertrandRussell · 15/02/2017 09:45

The "slight quibbles about numerical values" that someone mentioned are crucial to many schools. Secondary modern schools are a case in point. Schools get more "points" for lifting a B to an A or an A to an A* than they do for lifting a D to a C. So a school like ours with a tiny % of high ability kids is screwed.

IDK · 15/02/2017 09:40

Well in our case, DS got B grades and that was good enough for the school. No-one spotted that he was getting B grades despite an SpLD and should have got A*/A grades.
He did get A*/A once proper provision was in place.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 15/02/2017 09:38

Thinking about it, a lot of the money for intervention comes from pupil premium, and there are way more PP kids clustered around the C/D borderline than the A*/A one. I'm not sure where money for intervention for higher attainers would come from in a time of severe budget cuts.

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Original poster
noblegiraffe · 15/02/2017 09:32

where C/D borderline get all the assistance

I'm assuming that the A*/A kids get the taught lessons that they are entitled to and aren't just left in a corridor?

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IDK · 15/02/2017 09:17

I'm another who is pleased that we are measuring progress for all. As a PP said, if State schools end up being the place where C/D borderline get all the assistance then those parents that can will start to leave in droves.
People are forever going on about University admissions and how unfair they are - they seem skewed towards middle class, independent pupils. With a State system that puts its resource into C/D pupils to the detriment of A*/A/B pupils it's to be expected.

HPFA · 15/02/2017 07:20

A rare education thread where I kind of feel I agree with everybody!

Is there a wider question of how far schools should be pushing around any grade boundaries? Good teaching, effective marking, revision sessions, these are fine but aren't GCSE grades supposed to reflect the ability and work ethic of the students? I seem to remember one of the "Educating..." programmes where a teacher actually went round to a student's house to get them out of bed before one of their exams. Isn't there a point where if students haven't bothered to work they should feel the consequences of that choice?

I guess these days schools don't have much choice though.

reup · 15/02/2017 07:08

I do worry about how schools direct their resources. My son had no targeted help in primary for SATs because he wasn't on a borderline level. But he could barely spell, had illegible handwriting and really poor sentence organisation. Before all the data driven planning and SATs I'm sure he would have had more help as his work was so visibly poor. ( we subsequently had him privately tested and he's quite severely dyslexic but with really high other skills which is why his reading was always very good).

His friend was given booster classes galore because he was borderline 5/6. He left primary feeling a bit of a failure as he didn't get a 6 in all subjects At secondary he is obviously on a high target trajectory. He is not anywhere near these targets so has had 3 years of reports saying this. Maybe he was never meant to be up so high, maybe he doesn't work hard, maybe he peaked at 10/11 and has levelled off since. I have no idea. He is still doing well just not as well as predicted by his SATs scores. They do do cats as well but we never find out about them, I can imagine the school putting in place lots of interventions when they start the GCSEs. It just seems all this data assume everyone improves in a smooth linear way.