New grammars by 2020 which will exclude 90% of local kids

I do wonder if people are falling for the marketing from the likes of Oxford, that their exams are just so much harder than anywhere else - would be interested to see some empirical evidence for this?

Empirical evidence: students come to Oxford and Cambridge from other universities, with Firsts, to do fourth year Masters courses in my subject. Their marks at Oxbridge are far below their undergraduate marks, reflecting the different standards of the papers and marking.

flyingwithwings Wed 15-Feb-17 13:53:55 I believe grammar schools should be representative of the level of the town area or county.

There is already a Grammar School in Stoke, St Josephs. Why will adding another Grammar make a massive difference?

Undoubtedly selection will always be popular with parents who feel their children would achieve better in that system - but that doesn't mean in any way that May's claims that it helps disadvantaged children rise to the top are borne out, which is supposed to be the point.

And how it's supposed to help those left behind, I really don't know.

I'm glad now that mine are too old for all this - all we have to worry about is the stupid new level 9 malarkey in English and Maths GCSEs...

That's sanctimonious BS noble and you know it!

While the problem of underachievement amongst high ability students in the state sector remains unaddressed, selection will continue to be popular.

Mumsnet may deny this problem exists but each successive government diasagrees. As does virtually everyone in HE.

You know full well i mean represent the top 25-30% of the town or area

Hang on- you think a grammar should represent its surrounding cohort?

That's a comprehensive school. The whole point of a grammar is that it doesn't represent its surrounding cohort......................

academy.org/tggsadmissions

What a brilliant enticement to up sticks and move to the area !

Really? so you think that 2 3rds of children in the area are high ability? Is this reflected in the yr6 primary SATs results?

No i believe St Josephs is representative of the top 30% of the towns Cohort. As i have stated the highly regarded 'Academic' private school , attains worse A level results than your average grammar !

In Stoke and surrounding areas Newcastle Under Lyme school has the total pick of all non 'Catholic' children yet only attains B grade average at A level.

I believe grammar schools should be representative of the level of the town area or county. clearly a Grammar in Hartlepool is not going to have
the same '138' required score for entry as Tonbridge Grammar or Tiffin.

do you want to give most of the Kent students low class degrees so they are ranked on the same scale as the Oxford ones? How is this helpful to anyone?

Again, seems to work for GCSE and A levels.

I do wonder if people are falling for the marketing from the likes of Oxford, that their exams are just so much harder than anywhere else - would be interested to see some empirical evidence for this?

flyingwithwings Wed 15-Feb-17 11:13:16 I think St Joseph's cohort is representative of the level of high ability students in the area .

Really? so you think that 2 3rds of children in the area are high ability? Is this reflected in the yr6 primary SATs results?

5% FSM does not suggest deprived, low aspirational families unless the vast majority of families selecting this school are just above the line?

www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/school/136460?tab=secondary

If a Grammar opened in the area, would there be a suffient number of high ability DCs to populate both schools or would St Josephs just loose out to the Grammar?

You should also note that some Grammar schools will run with emply places rather than drop the entry requirements:

tggsacademy.org/tggsadmissions

But it doesn't work at A level maths - top universities set their own entrance papers (MAT, STEP) as lots of students get high marks in A level maths but are unable to cope with high level maths courses.

Again, do you want to give most of the Kent students low class degrees so they are ranked on the same scale as the Oxford ones? How is this helpful to anyone?

"Baffled by all the people on this thread who know their kids will be in the top 10%."

As others have said, it would be very interesting to see how a "Bring back Secondary Moderns" campaign would go...........

Do you genuinely believe that all 31% can actually be taught the same material

Seems to work for GCSE and A level. I would be interested to see any evidence that shows the syllabus of a Maths degree from, say, Oxford, is so widely different from one from, say, Kent; that undergraduates from the latter couldn't cope with the former - given the degree award goes from 1st class honours to ordinary.

This article from the THE would seem to argue that know one really knows if a degree from one university is comparable to one from another.
www.timeshighereducation.com/features/are-uk-degree-standards-comparable/2016838.article, so maybe it was time this was investigated, especially as HE is now a service that students pay so much for?

Baffled by all the people on this thread who know their kids will be in the top 10%. Mine appear to be quite bright but I've no idea how they might stack up against half the county. Presumably the catchment area for these school will be pretty huge.

The difference, ifailed, between selection at 10 and selection at 18 is that at 18 you have a theoretical choice of any institution in the country.

"Do you genuinely believe that all 31% can actually be taught the same material"

I wouldn't have thought so, no.

Added to the fact that most 18 year olds don't go to university (31% do) I don't see the problem.

Do you genuinely believe that all 31% can actually be taught the same material - i.e. intrinsic ability plays no role and all can learn the same material if taught well enough?

And do you genuinely believe that it is in best interests of the country and the economy to dumb down top degrees so they lose international respect?

In terms of Achievement for the most able Stoke doesn't do too badly - the average Attainment 8 score for High achievers is 62.5 against a National Average of 64.4. Not bad considering Stoke is a deprived area, for comparison wealthy Surrey is 66.3.

I Failed have you thought of offering your no 'selection' education policy to Angela and Jeremy, i am sure they would give it some consideration as a policy !

BertrandRussell , not at all. I genuinely think the higher education system needs reform, and, like many other parts of education, is generally geared to help the middle-class and children with informed/pushy parents. That is why I believe strongly in the comprehensive system, all children get an opportunity regardless of background.

Are you being disingenuous, Ifailed?