New grammars by 2020 which will exclude 90% of local kids

Dixiechickonhols Thu 23-Feb-17 13:40:16 Surely it should be about giving children maximum number of options.

Whilst you may think it should be about giving more options to high ability DCs, I think it should really be about providing a better quality of education for all. I don’t for one minute believe setting up selective schools for the top 10% is the best way to go about it.

I also disagree that setting up a Grammar school won't make things worse. Perhaps you haven't seen all the posts about the cuts in school funding. Surely throwing X£m at a new school that makes no difference to the outcome of the DCs will make things worse because that will be money that could have been better spent elsewhere.

It might also be worth noting that Lancaster Girls' Grammar School has a below national average progress score at A Level so it doesn't appear to be getting the best out of the DCs who go there.

As for objecting to there not being enough choice for Muslim or Hindu families, perhaps the issue there is the faith criteria rather than the absence of a Grammar?

I've explained at length why chances of passing Ooc are slim

My DC had to score in the top 10% of an examined Cohort of 3,800 for their chosen school. That's despite living in an 11 plus area next to other 11 plus areas. Chances of gaining a Grammar place anywhere are slim.

Will be interested to see 2017 entry stats. New building is massive and in main family 4 bed homes. The houses fill with people with junior age children (need to be in new house by oct year 6) often from out of catchment moving into catchment. Not just for the grammar for the outstanding comps. Rumour at time of exam in September 2016 was no ooc spaces but I know a child going from ooc so untrue. I'm not overly familiar with bacup but same set up there most schools finish at 16 and you go to college or Grammar 6th form. I grew up in a fully comp area and all schools finished at 16 and you did A levels at college so the norm for me - I assume non typical for your area as It seems odd to you. There isn't a college in Clitheroe so grammar picks up a lot of the 6th form pupils in area.

Dixie,

I suppose the basic question is whether maximising choice is 'good' (essentially, the recent English model of education) or whether having minimal choice but aspiring to maintain all schools at a similar high standard is a better aspiration (essentially, the Scottish model of catchment schools is based around this philosophy).

Of course, in practice, neither 'pure' model quite works - in many parts of the country, there is no genuine choice of school, as most houses are realistically only within 1 school's effective catchment. Equally, schools in Scotland do vary in quality and placing requests are present as a mechanism for choosing between schools. As has been amply demonstrated many times on MN, the quality of a school - or perhaps best described as the perceived quality of a school - is strongly linked to the characteristics of its intake.

However, as an aspiration, is it genuinely better to maximise choice, or maximise the quality of a more limited choice?

The grammar isn't 3 miles from deprived town just the edge of the catchment. I've explained at length why chances of passing Ooc are slim , many won't put their children through that. Yes low ability dc won't have the option but why deprive some. A girl I know passed last year, she didn't get a place ooc. She was Hindu so no faith option. Surely it should be about giving children maximum number of options.

Dixiechickonhols I named four Grammar Schools. They all show an increase at 6th Form.

You can't disagree that a child living in deprived town has 1 less option than a child in grammar catchment 3 miles down the road.

Yes I can, actually, and I do. A medium or low ability DC/a DC with SEN (with the odd exception)/a DC from a deprived family and/or unsupportive parents living in a grammar catchment will have less option than a high ability DC with a supportive family living in a deprived town with Grammar Schools 3 miles down the road.

I can also disagree on the basis that you stated 50 OOC DCs gained places so those Grammar Schools 3 miles away are evidently an option.

The Muslim family won't have more options unless their DC passes the test and meets the admissions criteria.

50 places ooc 2016 was unusual, usually 20 ish ooc.

unless they are going to reduce the intake for next year and/or the new houses are going to be filled with families with 10/11 year olds, I imagine it won't be massively different next year?

Oh i'm not in Lancaster. I'm near Clitheroe. Bowland High, Ribblesdale, St Augustines all stop at 16. Private Oakhill and Moorlands do too. All the schools in deprived town do too, no school 6th forms just college. Some will bus in from there.

MumTrying herBest You can't disagree that a child living in deprived town has 1 less option than a child in grammar catchment 3 miles down the road. Just like if you are Muslim in deprived town you have one less option as you can't do the C of E church attendance move.

50 places ooc 2016 was unusual, usually 20 ish ooc. School has increased admissions from 120 to 150 due to massive housebuilding but new houses not all there yet. Traditionally 100 pass in catchment. Will be interested to see what 2017 entry stats are. So usually 200/250 ooc children sitting for 20 ish places so 1 in 10.

Dixiechickonhols Thu 23-Feb-17 12:18:30 all the comprehensives stop at 16.

Really? These arer all within 3 miles of Lancaster Girls' Grammar School:

Ripley St Thomas Church of England Academy
Our Lady's Catholic College
Central Lancaster High School
Lancaster and Morecambe College
Morecambe Community High School

mumski I very much agree with your post 11.19. It is nothing like a full Grammar area. In catchment people only put child in if they think they have a good chance and it will suit. It's not super selective so 'top table' at primary and you have a decent chance. When child's other option is outstanding comp in beautiful countryside, great pass rates for gcse then Grammar 6th form there is a lot stress and pressure. When your only option is 90% pass or a requires improvement comp with 21% pass rate thing are a lot different.

Dixiechickonhols Thu 23-Feb-17 12:12:56 So no Grammar in deprived town takes one option away from the children in town.

Erm, no, it will only take away one option for those DCs who pass the test and qualify for a place in accordance to the admissions criteria.

So in catchment 1 in 2 chance of a place, out of catchment 1 in 10 chance of a place

I don't understand where you get the 1 in 10 chance of a place from. You stated that 2016 had 450 applicants. 50% are OOC applicants and 50 places went to OOC applicants in 2016. That isn't a 1 in 10 chance.

The extra A level intake comes from all the local comprehensives, all the comprehensives stop at 16. 2 of the privates also stop at 16. Then you go to Grammar 6th form or college 6th form. 6th form Is in a totally separate building, different location.

I posted without seeing above from mumski ! We are talking about different schools same county. Stats I found on 11 plus forum suggest About 50/50 in catchment out of catchment sitting. So in catchment 1 in 2 chance of a place, out of catchment 1 in 10 chance of a place. So no Grammar in deprived town takes one option away from the children in town.

Mumski45 I only ask because the numbers given on the DfE performance tables seem odd:

Lancaster Royal Grammar School – 2016 GCSE Examined cohort 147 – currently offers 150 places & 47 boarding. A Level examined co-hort 165

Lancaster Girls' Grammar School - 2016 GCSE Examined cohort 113 – currently offers 145 places. A Level examined co-hort 165

Clitheroe Royal Grammar School - 2016 GCSE Examined cohort 118 – currently offers 150 places. A Level examined co-hort 314

Bacup and Rawtenstall Grammar School - 2016 GCSE Examined cohort 148 – currently offers 180 places. A Level examined co-hort 216

Where does the extra A level intake come from?

No the Grammar near me has no empty places I'm aware of. Very popular school, hundreds there on open night. As I recall stats for 2016 entry were 150 places (previously 120) 450 ish sit exam. If you live in catchment and pass you get a place as less in catchment pass than places historically but could change especially with scale of new house building. Previously used to be 20 ish places left for ooc was highest ever 50 in 2016. A child from anywhere in country can sit for school but the out of catchment places go on score order. Many will pass and not get a place due to being ooc.

No there are no empty places. In the one my DS has a place at there are about 400 applications for 150 places. I don't know exact results as they are not published but I suspect about 100 go to in catchment boys who pass and the rest go OOC in order of score. I suspect that the applications are roughly 50:50 between in catchment and OOC. There is a limit on the
OOC area which is the which the school bus collects from.

Mumski45 as you are in the same area as Dixiechicks, do the existing Grammar Schools have empty places?

PiratePete
I do agree with what you say in that there are some bright kids who will never benefit from a grammar school as their parents won't seek out the best school or support a grammar school application. However there are a lot of children in the "middle classes" who can't afford private school or a house in the catchment area of a good comprehensive. These families do benefit and in an area like mine where there is only a few grammar places the impact on the comprehensives is negligible. I don't support a full grammar system but do think the system in my area works but could be fairer with a limited number of additional places.

I have no idea how we can help those whose parents don't support them but I don't think that other bright children from supportive but not well off families should not have options open to them on the basis that these families don't access them.

Like you I would not allow my own children to suffer due to an unfair system and l am happy for my DC to attend the grammar school 20+ miles away as I feel it is the best fit for his personality and he has little chance of getting into the best comprehensives that are nearer.

Dixiechickonhols - yes I am same LEA but a different town I think. The problem in this debate I think is that there are some areas which have a completely different system with a more marked difference between the grammar and comps and a culture within which most children take 11+ even if they can opt out. This system does seem to result in lower standard comps or secondary modern type schools and a consequent vicious circle of most kids being tutored to death avoid them. The key seems to be getting the balance right so that non grammar schools do not loose out.

I don't know if it's possible but a system which is opt in only and which is 'tutor proof' together with help with the cost of transport for those that really can't afford it would be best.

The current debate seems to assume that the government want to move to an all or nothing approach where every bright child is sent to grammar whether or not it is the best fit for them and the other schools will become secondary moderns. I don't think this is right and is not how it works in Lancashire.

Dixiechickonhols Does the Grammar School have any empty places?

Four that is simply not true about sec modern. I live in an area with 1 grammar (suspect same county as Mumski) It now takes 100 children a year from a huge catchment area (rest from ooc). The other schools are good or outstanding comprehensives. People move here because of the good secondary schooling.

Mumski I agree entirely with your 11.51 post it would simply give another option to the children in a deprived town. I'm not a massive grammar proponent simply they have tried everything else - 250 million super schools, UTC and been left with Require Improvement schools, schools no one wants and dire GCSE results. By leaving the town in the middle of 3 grammar school areas all that has happened is they have created this black hole. The busing kids out of town to secondary on a huge scale is ridiculous. The town is racically divided and the faith schools don't help with this. The muslim children (1/3 of town) and the children with parents who can't or wont pay the bus fares or can't or won't play the faith game are currently the ones without options. A grammar wont cure everything but as I said in my very first post on here I can't see how it will make things any worse and will at least give some children another option.

MumTryingHerBest Why are you confused by no private secondary in town but small number in nearby towns. There is no private secondary in town at all, why would I say that if not true. It is a deprived Lancashire town. What there are mini buses that bus children from town to 3? small private schools in nearby areas. They are used if parents don't want to move to better catchment, child didn't pass grammar ooc or didn't sit as not super selective academic and don't want to or can't use the C of E/RC get out of dire comprehensive card. Not many go for private as it is cheaper to simply move a couple of miles to next catchment where there is a grammar and a choice of good/outstanding comprehensives with decent pass rates.

MumTrying Her Best There is one 11 plus exam in Lancs and Skipton on same day no exam tourism like the south the child can only sit one. In catchment you need a 70/75% pass. There is no ranking - in catchment and a pass you have a place. Out of catchment they take the best scores so word on the street is you need to be 90% plus to stand chance. Last year school increased to 150 and took 100 from in catchment and 50 ooc. They are building family homes like crazy in catchment so next year may be only 20 ooc places so a child will need 95% etc. Yes a lot of bright kids in town don't currently sit for ooc grammar for many reasons, main one being child needs to be superselective standard to pass ooc. Plus time travelling, bus fares, parental knowledge to realise a child can sit ooc etc.
A grammar catchment covering the whole town will not create wealthier areas. It will simply give another option.

I live and teach in Kent, so just bought I would clarify a couple of things.

Kent is opt in, despite being essentially a fully grammar county.

You don't get free transport to your nearest grammar if you pass, just nearest school (though I gather it can be hard to get that, for everyone).

Head teachers appeals happen before the results come out and are intended to solve any obvious anomalies, parents can still appeal later.

There are no comprehensive options, although our local modern is good.

East Kent is an area of social deprivation and the grammar schools there are less oversubscribed than those in West Kent. All grammars in Kent have lowish numbers of fsm. This is not surprising as if you are the kind of engaged parent who encourages your child to take an opt in test, you are more likely to be employable. Many grammars do have students with SEN, particularly HFA.

I am not a fan of the grammar system, despite the fact that as an academic child in a crappy comp myself I would have loved to go to one! My dc have gone to one though, and I genuinely think a proper comp would have been much better for them both- but not an option here.

I am an ex teacher and ofsted inspector. I can categorically say that grammar schools will not improve social mobility. A child from a deprived area with an unsettled home life does not have a hope in hell of getting into a grammar even if they were a genius. Children who have parents who support (some may say push) them, from middle class educated families are the ones that will take the majority of the places. The rest will go to poorer children who do have parents who aspire for me. All of these children would have done well in any school.

And I will confess to being a hypocrite. I will not sacrifice my child to stand up against a system that I think is unfair. He goes to a private prep, he will be tutored from year 3 and we are viewing grammar school as an escape from extortiate private secondary school fees. How is that a fair system?