New grammars by 2020 which will exclude 90% of local kids

In Birmingham, one of the 8 grammars has a completely different (lower achieving) intake from the other 7, so, yes, I would say that school has no attraction for the suburban middle classes who would prefer their local lower performing comp(which might not actually be lower performing for higher ability pupils).

Stretford grammar has significantly fewer FSM children than the catchment has. It also has a much higher number of ESL children. So probably a significant number of children from immigrant families who are likely to be poor. But still with pretty stellar results. Any local unpopularity is likely to be down to racism

I've just looked at Stretford Grammar on a map. It's on the border of Stretford and Chorlton.

Flying
I live in a postcode that is 9th decile for deprivation
All else round here is 10th
But 50% of the kids go to the excellent comps over the border.

Grammars would remove that opportunity.

18.7% 12.8% and 24.7% FSM respectively ...

mum
Hey, thanks for that. How interesting perhaps I'm portraying a bit of inverted snobbery. I would have presumed that mc parents wouldn't hear of it.
Is this parents usually taking the dc such distances or is there a good access to public transport in these areas.
Kids round here tend to go to the nearest school they are offered a place,
there's not much between them tbh.
I can't imagine my dc having travelled far to get to school.
Funny as it isn't but my ds2 was the nearest child to his school and he was late everyday, less than a 5 min walk.

STRETFORD , HANDSWORTH , CHATHAM ?

But grammarcschools don't give places to children from deprived areas. So the question is moot.

BertrandRussell Sat 11-Feb-17 21:44:06 No, you're right. They aren't usually open about it.

So you think that most middle class families would choose a much lower performing school over a grammar school if they thought the grammar school had allocated places to chikldren from deprived areas?

I throw a bit of a 'conundrum' in here regarding , mixing with your own type.

They are plenty of families that would who if offered Stretford Grammar or the 'Modern' in Timperley would take the Modern with both hands..

It is noticed in Trafford that 'Stretford Grammar' is the school of last choice !

Which County are you in 'Little'.

"I can honestly say, not a single parent I know expressed a concern about whether their DCs would be going to school with other DCs from deprived areas"

No, you're right. They aren't usually open about it.

We live in an area with Grammars sadly most kids in them are from prep. We are in a great academy school and there are a lots of kids who opted for this school over grammar.

I think it raises standards in the area so only a good thing.

gillybeanz Sat 11-Feb-17 20:39:35 Do you think mc parents would want their children to mix with those from a deprived area though?

I can honestly say, not a single parent I know expressed a concern about whether their DCs would be going to school with other DCs from deprived areas.

Some of the distances that children travel to get to Grammar schools are so large some parents won't even know the areas that some children come from so won't know if they are deprived or not.

Laugh so much about the dumb snobbery.
Round here even poor people get their kids into the better school (as tutoring not an issue; only geography ) And yet those poor kids do not seem to pull down the results at the leafy schools.

Mum

I bet this happens a lot now you come to mention it.
I hadn't considered this.
Do you think mc parents would want their children to mix with those from a deprived area though? Even if they were being ferried in and out.
Would they want them mixing with a bright kid from a sink estate.
There used to be children like this in the old grammar system in the poorer areas.

gillybeanz Sat 11-Feb-17 18:35:35 I also think with a grammar in every town there wouldn't be the rush of mc families buying in gs areas, as these would be everywhere.

You might want to consider why it is that some children don't choose the nearest Grammar, opting for one further away. You'd be surprised how far children travel if there is a higher performing Grammar school they can get into.

The average A-C GCSE was below national average too.

As much has changed since my older 2 were at secondary and i don't know much about recent changes I looked briefly at some of the schools in our area ito the new 8 marking thingy (getting technical now)
Our borough average is 60% which looks like it's propped up by 2 schools that would likely take the grammar school kids.
There are schools around 50%.
Some have been able to opt out of publishing theirs too, I believe down to high pp and children with SN.

The standards might not be good enough to attract private school families.However, they would be many times better than what is currently available for bright or probably just above average children.

Stoke might be 'Shit' for education, but the 'Northern Soul' that is now being played on BBC Stoke is 'World Class'.

Listening to from Bucks via the BBC Stoke Website.

Gilly I know your are in Lancs so just for you Northern Soul Started at the Torch in Hanley in 1967 the Casino started in 1973.

Everybody confused.....

The Grammar in Stoke might be crap compared to others in more prosperous areas but it still represents the top 25-30% of the towns ability range.

I also believe if a grammar school existed in places like Skelmesdale for instance it would achieve similar results to St Josephs.

There are two reasons why Grammar schools in such places will not attract kids currently at prep schools . A the standards will not be good enough . B Families that live in Up-Holland would never let their offspring mix with kids from the 'SKEM' no matter how bright those kids might be.

mixedgrill- the idea is that any obvious injustices will be sorted out at that stage- something happening during the test, marking the wrong boxes, that sort of thing. But yes- just one more layer of unfairness.

HPFA

Some areas don't have private schools, mc families, mc schools, they are all poor.
In our town anyone who would be considered as mc lives in other 'naice' areas and commutes to work here.
There aren't many opportunities for children, some if they are lucky find a way to move away, a small percentage go to uni.
Aspiration is very low and this is ingrained.
At least when there was a grammar the brightest ones had some chance of social mobility, which is what grammars were all about.
Yes, the present system doesn't work and sounds bad for places like kent or Manchester where house prices are high to gain access to gs.
With one in every town why would house prices be dearer if everyone could access the school.

gilly I still don't think you've given us the mechanism by which you'll avoid the grammar places simply going to those who would otherwise have gone private or to the more middle class comps. The only way you're going to get lots of poor kids into grammars is to have lots and lots of grammars. Believe me you'll then get loads of Mumsnetters complaining about "house price" grammars!

Noble If that article is true it seems to show what a weird state of mind the government has got itself into. Why do they want to sneak out a policy that, according to them, is going to be really popular?

Flying Fair enough, didn't spot the careers bit so give you that one.

However, I'm afraid I don't get what that has to do with grammars. If children in Stoke get better exam results but worse careers than those in Surrey then it suggests that that has nothing to do with education but everything to do with other social factors.