New grammars by 2020 which will exclude 90% of local kids

Ta1kinPeace are you in a grammar area? I am - my kids qualified for grammar and are at their catchment school. They get their on tge school bus which runs through our village.

My point was that your council is only obliged to give you free transport to the closest school - irrespective of whether it is grammar or secondary modern (we have no comps) - a non catchment, secondary modern is deemed 30meters closer to my house then the catchment grammar my children attend hence I pay for their transport.

I say this because this is the reality of living in a grammar area - the test is opt out not in, the council say my children are best suited to a grammar education but they will only pay transport to the closest school. Ironically there is a council school bus to their grammar (which I pay for them to go on - tge council abolished all public transport to our village years ago) - if I chose to take up theirs offer of the free transport to the secondary modern there is no bus to get there - I asked how they would transport my children and was told they would lay on a taxi service!

Essex here.

Our local grammar is full of girls commuting in for an hr every morning by train from London. Our kids walk past and go to the local comps

Talkin,

But how many - and which - families still send their children to your local school, because it's easier / cheaper / they really don't care that the education is worse?

I'm absolutely not saying that grammars are the answer to schools klike your local one - what i am saying is that the children who do go to your local school will be no further disadvantaged by the presence of a grammar school than they are by the current situation. in fact, ironically, if one of the schools across the border did turn into a grammar school, the local school might actually get a wider range of children attending it, because those who currently cross the boundary to a non-selective school would no longer be able to do so.

Don't get me wrong, I oppose both the grammars that exist, and the proposed ones too. However, the effects in specific localities are not always predictable!

olly
catchments round here are up to 11 miles across - free buses are essential to people in the villages so they pretty much HAVE to use the catchment school

cantkeep
500 of us locally send our kids over the border to the other two schools (the local school has 400 empty spaces)
but the point is that ANY child can get in up there
rich, poor, thick, clever, atheist, fundamentalist
they all get in because only postcode counts

so the comps up the way are actually more mixed than their catchment

Grammars or ANY sort of selection would penalise those who most need options

There's no free transport per se - the councils are obliged to provide free transport (if you live outside the statutory walking distance) to your closest school. My children are at their catchment school. A non catchment upper (secondary modern) is 30m closer to my house - we don't get free transport.

The one thing that the Bucks grammars do exceptionally well is all the extra curricular stuff - it is truly outstanding- this is what should be available in all schools

Olly, I do know that in some areas the Grammar tests are opt-out - but I also know that is not replicated across the country, and I don't know whether that, and free transport for passers, is part of the current proposal.

I agree that "Abolishing the grammars nationally would be the best solution." - and ploughing e.g. remaining foundation / endowment funds [which are what enabled some residual grammars to remain in existence when most were abolished] into all schools equally.

cantkeepawayforever the 11+ in Bucks is opt out - always has been. All children in Bucks primary schools are automatically entered.

We live in Bucks - my children are in a very sought after grammar, are very happy and achieving highly.

There is always a lot of nonsense talked about grammar schools. Bucks is fully selective- we have no comps. Abolishing the grammars nationally would be the best solution.

(A fear / attitude so deeply entrenched that my beloved grandparents, from extremely deprived backgrounds themselves, bought me my secondary scholl uniform when I got a 100% scholarship - and DBro his bus pass when he went to a sixth form outside the county. Although they knew, rationally, that it possibly wasn't the make-or-break thing it had been for them, it was still an absolutely deep-seated fear that somehow we wouldn't be able to go unless we had our uniform / bus pass bought for us)

Unless the 11+ becomes compulsory rather than opt-in, many children fro non-aspirational, chaotic etc families will not even take the 11+, let alone pass it.

Also, unless the proposal includes free buses to the grammar school, many parents will not enter their children, or not accept places, because they cannot afford transport (akin to the 'golden age of the 1950s' which we are supposed to hark back to, when many, many working class 11+ passers did not take up places because they could not afford the uniform or equipment)

I hear what you are saying but a grammar in such an area can only make things even worse for those left behind. Some may be skimmed off to something better but the majority will be in an even worse situation with all the non aspiration being underlined with bells on by the failure to pass the 11+.

So in Skem, say, parents who did send their children to the faith school (which is the best of the options available) may then send their children to a grammar if they can (or continue to send them to the faith school). It doesn't help those children who are left with the remaining school/s.

Fourmantent,

The issue, and I don't know how to get around this one, is that in such communities, there ISN'T a school with the full range of abilities - because any aspirational parents do as TalkinPeace does and sends their child to school outside the community. Such parents sending their child to a grammar instead isn't actually going to make a huge difference in that particular scenario.

It is in the 'more mixed' communities where the comprehensives genuinely do have the full range of abilities that the effect of these 'skim off the top' grammars will be the greatest.

Four

I think you have a point about the comps that are good and can offer a wide range of levels to suit all, but unfortunately they don't exist in all areas.
Ours vary a little, some offer an academic route and a less academic route
Others offer predominantly a none academic route.
We found it rare for a school to offer a broad wide range of options.

It will be a double whammy for the kids from non-aspirational communities if they "fail" at 11 and are sent to secondary moderns. They will have more of a chance if they go to a comprehensive with the full range of abilities and top sets to aspire to.

flying,

I seem to remember that the 'best' school in Skem is simple selective by religion, rather than by ability?

I would absolutely agree, though, that the variation in educational and life outcomes across the country is down to much more than the existence or not of grammars - huge socio-economic differences, and in particular whether avenues to improved employment prospects through education a) exist and b) are acceptable to the local community in terms of 'being for people like us' have an enormous impact on outcomes.

Select committee report due on Tuesday

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/judge-grammar-schools-their-effect-all-pupils-mps-argue

It sounds like it will not support government position.

West Sussex Heads are in open rebellion (entry on 10th February)

www.facebook.com/WorthLessWestSussex/

I think future of new grammars will depend on how far Headteachers rebellion will spread and whether the action can successfully pressurise wavering Tory MPs.

Borders Maidenhead Council (TM's constituency) are the ones trying hardest at the moment - they have long abandoned the social mobility line and are now claiming that it's so kids going to the grammars in next door Bucks don't have so far to travel. There doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm in the population, probably because people who want grammars can get to them in Bucks or Slough and would like to preserve the Maidenhead comps (which are almost all good) as a back up. Milton Keynes Council has also muttered about a grammar, probably with the same motivation as Maidenhead. I believe there's been mutterings somewhere round Hertforshire?

Meopham School actually held a ballot on possible conversion to becoming a grammar but apparently the result was 50/50 so they are not progressing further. Many felt it was a publicity stunt. As the school is in Kent there are grammars available anyway and apparently the nearest non-selective with places is miles away so I suspect its unlikely the school would have been allowed to convert anyway.

The debate about middle-class parents and grammars above has been interesting. I believe there is a definite pecking order in the selective counties around the grammars, the Aylesbury single-sex are more prestigious than mixed Henry Floyd for instance.

It should be noted that the government case on the popularity of grammars is based entirely on the fact that people try very hard to get into grammars where they exist. I think by now they have even convinced themselves that this means everyone is desperate for grammars per se.

Has anywhere said that they're actually going to open a new Grammar School?

The biggest threat to the quality of our children's education at the moment is underfunding, resulting in headteachers having to decide which subjects to cut, which staff to make redundant, what pastoral support is expendable, and whether they should operate a four day working week. This fucking government needs to get its priorities right and work with what it has got, not waste money on vanity projects that will do bugger all to resolve the real problem.

I have tried to post this 3 times now, it's losing it's appeal now.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/top-secondary-schools-greater-manchester-11681118

How many children fighting and not getting a place in one of the "ManCheshire" grammars are likely to fight to get a place in a "Wigan grammar".
I'd say the answer would be none. They would likely attend one of their great comps.
Maybe interesting for fly

Was interested in your posts about Stoke too, as spent a lot of time here growing up. "Duck".

I am more than happy for my ds to "mix" with people from "lower classes" - but there again, being in Scotland, in a fully comprehensive system, we don't have much choice

I will admit that he he is a placing request to the school that is 5 minutes further walk away (15-20 minute walk rather than 10-15 minutes); there was a sporting reason for his placing request. School has, to date, been able to accept all placing requests.

School has 21% Free School Meals, a large part of its catchment is SIMD1 (Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivation) , ie very poor. But there are also "millionaires" and MC areas within its catchment. There are 55 languages spoken within a school of 1200 pupils, as well as multiple ethnicities and religions.

Yet despite - or because of - that, it gets good results. Kids can and go go to Oxbridge/RG/ancient Unis/study medicine/law/vet science/STEM subjects.

Might it possibly, just possibly, be because of good teaching and a pride in its diversity?

Grammar schools don't help that.

t: Re: AstonOnMersey vs Wellington
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:58 pm
Offline

Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:55 am
Posts: 9
From what I've heard/read on here I'd say Wellington over Ashton. But not being in the are for Wellington I've not looked round. Ashton is a great school though. Looked round twice now. Heard great reports from friends with Yr7s.

Top
Profile

bookaddict
Post subject: Re: AstonOnMersey vs Wellington
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:47 pm
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:08 pm
Posts: 24
I've heard excellent reports from both schools. Many of my DC's friends go to Wellington (because of this and how good it was on the open day it became a tough decision of first choice of school) and have enjoyed their first 6 weeks.
They have a summer school (1 week in August) for children need help with transition and also class zero - about 15 children in a set of their brightest children.

I think it is perfectly possible for all schools to be good in areas with selection.

Sorry to interrupt but
Round here even the poor
And non sharp elbowed get good schools
Grammar areas fail on that

gillybeanz Sat 11-Feb-17 21:58:19 Hey, thanks for that. How interesting perhaps I'm portraying a bit of inverted snobbery. I would have presumed that mc parents wouldn't hear of it.

I'm sure some wouldn't. With the parents I know its all about getting into the school with the best results or the one that is hardest to get into.