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Is this punishment 'fair enough' and normal practice?

135 replies

youarenotkiddingme · 04/02/2017 10:07

So a child in yr 7 is walking through school with friends.

See's older pupils wearing something non uniform policy. It's very obviously not in keeping with the school. The school have a massive image complex and drum it into the pupils.

Pupils makes a comment to friends about how come they get away with it, they don't like the image and then says it makes them look like (but not racist/ disablist or anything)

Teacher overheard the comment (or rather the context of conversation) and pupil out on harshest detention they dish out for using an unkind word.

I'm being vague as don't want to be outed.

But I'm wondering if it's normal to punish children so harshly for a comment made in passing to friends in a corridor?
(Teacher admits they didn't actually hear word first time and only know exactly what was said as pupil asked and she told her)

OP posts:
BitOutOfPractice · 04/02/2017 19:41

Cone on op. This is 2017. Surely any woman operating in normal society can see that tart and tarty are words that are only ever applied to females in a derogatory way. That must raise some alarm bells surely. You, your friend and are dd are not stupid. And I hope you are teaching your ds that these words are just not on

BitOutOfPractice · 04/02/2017 19:38

I hate this shit about "appropriate" clothing which is obviously only ever aimed at females. And the way they hope that girl pupils will collude in calling other pupils "tatlrty" to reinforce that sexist dress code is horrifying.

It happens at my DDs' school where there's an equally unhealthy obsession with uniform. It's all about the girls modifying their behaviour so that the boys can control themselves.

Utterly vile

youarenotkiddingme · 04/02/2017 18:46

Actually tbf to the girl she wasn't actually aiming to insult.

Her friend commented and pointed out the girls skirt length and how it was unfair the older children got away with it.

The girl just said "she agreed it was h fair hit didn't like the look anyway as it was tarty".

It's not a word that we have seen as having a derogatory meaning like prostitute. It's a word we've used to describe wearing less than is necessary for everyday life. So nightclub type attire.

And by we I mean people I know in friendship groups/family/ local people etc.

That's easy to correct. I don't use it and mention to others that use it what it's definition is in wide society.

And I'll just confirm the DD version of events and what was said is true. The way the do the dt emails means they give a very detailed explanation of why rather than "didn't hand in homework" or "used an inappropriate word"

OP posts:
WomanWithAltitude · 04/02/2017 18:23

Even if someone genuinely doesn't know it means prostitute, they cannot possibly think it is anything but derogatory. The eleven year old used the word purely because it's derogatory. She was trying to insult the other girl.

WomanWithAltitude · 04/02/2017 18:21

The fact that an eleven year old hasn't seen Pretty Woman is irrelevant. Confused I was talking about the adults on this site claiming not to know what tart means, not the eleven year old. Any decent dictionary will tell you it means prostitute (as evidenced by other posters above).

EvilTwins · 04/02/2017 18:09

I linked to a dictionary definition earlier in the thread bojo. Perhaps you should get down from your high horse and accept that you may be wrong on that one.

Kleinzeit · 04/02/2017 18:08

I think some of you should invest in a dictionary.

Yep, it's in my DH's Shorter Oxford. Says that it used to be affectionate, now derogatory. And means prostitute. I remember when "tart" was used commonly, then it seemed to get replaced by "slag" to mean much the same thing. Maybe these days many people really don't know?

ATailofTwoKitties · 04/02/2017 18:08

Don't worry, OP, your autocorrect is pure of thought. I think 'Senecio should have been scenario, that's all.

AllotmentyPlenty · 04/02/2017 18:05

I can find tart described as meaning a prostitute in the Cambridge English Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, Oxford, Collins, Chambers and Macmillan.

I think those are the main English dictionaries?

ReginaGeorgeinSheepsClothing · 04/02/2017 18:01

Someone up thread has posted a link to the Cambridge Dictionary definition... Which states 'Tart- female prostitute'

Bensyster · 04/02/2017 18:01

Bojo - which dictionary do you have?

Bensyster · 04/02/2017 17:59

Collins Concise: Tart - Promiscuous woman, a prostitute.

user1484226561 · 04/02/2017 17:57

Tart does not mean prostitute and I would like any of you to quote me a dictionary definition that says it is.

it totally does mean prostitute, and has done for centuries, ask your "older wiser" generation!

( incidentally, it was originally short for "sweetheart")

museumum · 04/02/2017 17:56

Oxford dictionary

Is this punishment 'fair enough' and normal practice?
bojorojo · 04/02/2017 17:51

I think some of you should invest in a dictionary. Not you OP.

I think what Hollywood uses as a slogan to sell a film film, is not the dictionary definition. Tart does not mean prostitute and I would like any of you to quote me a dictionary definition that says it is. People may make the connection, as you all have, but it does not have that actual meaning. It is a Hollywood connection that has been taken on board but without looking at the defined meaning of the word.

I think the OP is in a better position to comment, quite frankly. Also, what 11 year old has seen Pretty Woman? Highly unlikely as the film is pretty old now. The term is not acceptable,clearly came from parental upbringing, but I think many have over-reacted and have accepted that Hollywood PR defines langage. It doesn't. The world of language is bigger than that.

I am an adult and I have never hard tart used as a substitute for prostitute. Obviously I mix with an older and wiser generation. The generation that would have had a chat with the child and explained why she shouldn't say that.

Kleinzeit · 04/02/2017 17:43

What I was going to say when I read the OP: "it sounds fair to me. Calling names gets a detention. Especially if the name was misogynist/sexist like, I dunno, "tart"".

And then I read the rest of the thread and the word really was "tart". Go me!

Tart is indeed slang for prostitute. I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek because it's rather old-fashioned slang and I'm surprised anyone uses the word these days but maybe it's making a comeback.

youarenotkiddingme · 04/02/2017 17:39

I've never seen pretty woman!

Perhaps another teacher would have reacted differently? Perhaps they would have explained? But as harsh as it seemed to punish a good student for something overheard I've certainly seen 'why' it happened from this thread.

It's amazing how much you learn about things!

OP posts:
WomanWithAltitude · 04/02/2017 17:35

I'm genuinely surprised that there are adults who do not realise that 'tart' is slang for prostitute. Why is the Pretty Woman storyline often described as 'tart with a heart' do you think? It absolutely means prostitute.

The reason 'tarty' is often used to describe a woman who is deemed to be 'showing too much flesh' is because prostitutes are traditionally thought of as 'showing too much flesh'. It's not an obscure link.

Bensyster · 04/02/2017 17:32

I think the school was right to pull the pupil up. Personally, I really dislike the way words like slut, slag and tart are used against women. I have no issues with the word shite though.

museumum · 04/02/2017 17:20

A tart is absolutely a prostitute. No doubt. It's probably not been used in that context since the 70s but that's what it means.
Therefore "tarty" means quite obviously a combination of "cheap" and sexual and of dubious morals.

youarenotkiddingme · 04/02/2017 17:13

My understanding is (was!) the same as bojo

What's my autocorrect done?! (Do I want to know?!)

My phone keeps changing words after I've typed text, proof read and then pressed send. I swear it's re reading as it's sent through cyberspace and decides exactly what it thinks I should be sending!

OP posts:
EvilTwins · 04/02/2017 17:02

Tart - A female prostitute.

ATailofTwoKitties · 04/02/2017 17:01

No connection? Have you never heard of tarts and vicars parties/ tart with a heart etc? It means prostitute.

Meanwhile, I'm more fascinated by Youarenotkidding's autocorrect, which is clearly fond of small garden plants.

bojorojo · 04/02/2017 16:59

Goodness me! Tarty does not mean prostitute. The definition is that it is an informal word meaning: "dressing in a provocative manner that is considered to be in poor taste". That is not the same as saying a person is a prostitute. There is no connection between the word tarty and being paid for sex.

I think the word "shite" is both provocative, lazy and displays an inability to argue or discuss a point of view. It is an outburst.

There is plenty of evidence that schools can be overbearing and miss the important aspects of education and having a strong school ethos that everyone signs up to. Wearing a blazer at a given time is no indication whatsoever of a good school! Never was and never will be. It is incidental to a good education, good teaching and good results. It wastes the time of teachers who have to constantly check up on it. It wastes detention time and money when children have to be supervised. A word about the use of the word "tarty" from the teacher, at the time, would have been a more effective use of time and resources with a better outcome.

youarenotkiddingme · 04/02/2017 16:53

But thanks for all the comments.

I'm usually one for backing up teachers as I don't believe they use dt etc 'just because' (I'm sure they have enough to do!) and it's confirmed that I'm probably right to have this attitude and my feelings and questions about this senecio were likely driven by emotion.

OP posts:
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