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Original poster

Is this punishment 'fair enough' and normal practice?

135 replies

youarenotkiddingme · 04/02/2017 10:07

So a child in yr 7 is walking through school with friends.

See's older pupils wearing something non uniform policy. It's very obviously not in keeping with the school. The school have a massive image complex and drum it into the pupils.

Pupils makes a comment to friends about how come they get away with it, they don't like the image and then says it makes them look like (but not racist/ disablist or anything)

Teacher overheard the comment (or rather the context of conversation) and pupil out on harshest detention they dish out for using an unkind word.

I'm being vague as don't want to be outed.

But I'm wondering if it's normal to punish children so harshly for a comment made in passing to friends in a corridor?
(Teacher admits they didn't actually hear word first time and only know exactly what was said as pupil asked and she told her)

OP posts:
Bensyster · 05/02/2017 01:14

a polite term for a slag/slut There is no polite term, the year 7 child has hopefully learned that.

BitOutOfPractice · 04/02/2017 23:09

In what universe is "tart" a polite term for anything? Confused

Ohyesiam · 04/02/2017 23:05

womanwithaltitude I can't be arsed to read the op again, but I got the impression that the girl was saying what it was she didn't like about the look, rather than being insulting.

Somerville · 04/02/2017 22:32

a polite term for a slag/slut

I see that as well as not knowing the meaning of tart you are also a big fan of oxymorons.

helenwilson · 04/02/2017 22:26

OP, I actually agree with you in lots of respects. I think the school should apply their policy consistently and I do think it is important for girls and boys too, to wear appropriate dress. School is preparation for the outside world and it is a "professional" environment. Pupils can wear whatever they choose at home etc, but there's nothing wrong with being expected to stick to rules in school. I don't like boys who wear low rise trousers with their boxers hanging out and I don't think girls should roll their skirts up shorter than their blazer ! I also did not realise that tart was such an offensive word, where I grew up it was a polite term for a slag/slut which are much more offensive. I guess the child in question must have made her comment loudly for the teacher to have heard but given that I do not find tart too offensive then a detention seems quite harsh, perhaps a quiet word might have been more appropriate. I'd expect the girl with the short skirt to get in more trouble !

Somerville · 04/02/2017 22:21

I think what PP's mean about the girl not judging the other based on her skirt length is a bit more nuanced than how you've interpreted it, and unpicking it might help you figure it out where you sit on situations like these.

So...
A teenage girl rolls her skirt up at the waist one morning.
Someone else sees it.
They judge 'that skirt is shorter than uniform policy'.

To me, this is not a problem. They are judging it next to objective criteria.

We can take that a step further... there are plenty of office environments where there isn't a set dress policy, so there is no objective criteria. But where nonetheless other people might judge a skirt as too short for the environment based on social convention of what constitutes professional clothing.

The problem comes especially where people extend a judgement based on objective criteria to making subjective judgements. Of which short skirt = promiscuous is an obvious example a subjective judgement that many of us have been on the receiving end of at some point. There are plenty of others, too.

Trifleorbust · 04/02/2017 22:11

Why are you obsessed with bank managers? What does what someone wears for work have to do with whether one child should call another child 'tarty'? The issue isn't that the child pointed out a breach in the uniform policy, it is that the child made an unkind comment.

pizzatray · 04/02/2017 22:06

OP: If I did go to a bank and the Bank Manager had a short skirt and competently sorted out my banking issues I would not mutter "tart" to my DH on the way out. Which is sort of what this girl did.

If she was a shit bank manager then I wouldn't mutter "tart" either because the skirt doesn't influence the managing. And I'm not living in 1973. I'd complain to her superiors about the shit management.

Was this girl really "flashing her underwear" anyway? Or have we just got your friend's DD's word for that?

Bojo: You sound totally superior in your earlier post. Our school is zero tolerance on many things, including uniform, and the teaching is fine in my DC's experience. As for not thinking tart is in any way associated with prostitution... Hmm

Original poster
youarenotkiddingme · 04/02/2017 21:44

Yeah I've got the link between tarts and promiscuous now.

And that's exactly what I was getting at. I put short skirts and low cut tops in a night out wear box! I don't have the opinion it shouldn't be a choice to wear them. I just challenge the people who say the young girl shouldn't have 'judged' the choice if skirt length. I do not challenge the use of word -it's clearly offensive. I challenge it because I'm sure most people (whether they admit it or not due to not wanting to appear Unfeminist, victim blaming or whatever) wouldn't have an opinion on a bank manager (for example) dressed in a skirt shorter than jacket that flashes underwear.

Iys funny because when I watch programmes like Little house on the prairie (Blush) I'm grateful we've moved on in terms of what social norms were for woman's clothes.

OP posts:
Somerville · 04/02/2017 21:18

defy that social convention not connection

Somerville · 04/02/2017 21:18

It's a separate issue from this situation at the school, OP.

But since you ask; there are social conventions about clothing and appearance that does make me notice if someone is 'professionally' dressed or not. So yes, I don't wear the very short skirts in my wardrobe into the office; I save them for nights out. But I don't think that a woman who chooses to defy that social connection by choosing to wear a very short skirt to an office is tarty; it has nothing to do with her sex life and to me that is what tarty implies - that someone is promiscuous.

Original poster
youarenotkiddingme · 04/02/2017 21:06

No my child did not. RTFT.

I asked a question, said I was surprised my reaction was different to my usual stance and asked if maybe emotion was getting in the way. I realised it was and accepted that.

Thread has moved on somewhat since then and the discussion is opening my eyes to stuff. I'm clearly more naive to certain things than I realised.
I'm always happy to be corrected when wrong or educated when misunderstanding.

But please don't accuse me of things incorrectly.

OP posts:
Jaimx86 · 04/02/2017 20:47

Your child called another child a tart and you don't think there should be consequences?

Original poster
youarenotkiddingme · 04/02/2017 20:45

I do get tarty isn't a compliment!

But my question still stands. Would no one seriously be a little Hmm about entering a bank, board meeting or somewhere and seeing a woman in a skirt shorter than their jacket which showed underwear if they bent over.

I totally do not buy into the idea that woman ask to be assaulted if they chose to dress that way.

And I put the same question about men. Woukdnt you Hmm a little if your male bank manager turned up for a meeting in tight short shorts and a fitted t shirt?

The girl was clearly wrong to express her opinion out loud. I assume she'd have had the same punishment for declaring a look chavvy or gothy iho. I also accept that tarty is more offensive than I've realised.

I'm afraid you'll never convince me that wearing any type of uniform in a way that's different to what's policy for the place it's designed for is acceptable - boy or girl.

This school don't allow trousers for girls though - and I'm dead against that.

OP posts:
LilacPeony · 04/02/2017 20:32

Off topic slightly but i don't like it when younger girls are described as a "little madam" because boys can be just the same but there isn't an equivalent for them.

AllotmentyPlenty · 04/02/2017 20:19

Nah, as you were, I probably deserve it for not proof-reading. Wink Wink Wink

BitOutOfPractice · 04/02/2017 20:15

Allot shall I stand down the MN outrage? Grin

AllotmentyPlenty · 04/02/2017 20:14

I am so sorry everyone. I completely and totally mis-typed.

I CAN CAN CAN find tart described as meaning a prostitute in the Cambridge English Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, Oxford, Collins, Chambers and Macmillan.

Sorry for a useless mistake rendering my quote quite useless and misleading,

BitOutOfPractice · 04/02/2017 20:07

but let's be honest - it is inappropriate to roll a skirt up shorter than the blazer length.

Why?

BitOutOfPractice · 04/02/2017 20:05

Tarty is offensive because it is judgy. It it labelling. It is pejorative. And it is only ever ever ascribed to girls. Which, in itself, is a reason to think long and hard about why and how it's used.

BitOutOfPractice · 04/02/2017 20:03

This has nothing to do girls or their choice of clothes.

It had everything to do with girls and /or their choice of clothes Confused

Original poster
youarenotkiddingme · 04/02/2017 20:02

I seemed to lose a chunk there!

I'm open to the fact my use and understanding of the word isn't how most of society see it and see that has to stop. But my use of the word was ....

OP posts:
Original poster
youarenotkiddingme · 04/02/2017 20:00

No I don't teach my ds words that aren't on.

My ds has a disability and I spend an inordinate amount of time on speech and language with him.

My original question was about is it usual for punishment for things overheard when it was a personal comment about how someone found something.

And I'm open to the fact I'd ask if something looked tarty of it was low cut or short. But in the context of "am I showing more than necessary". There's a difference IMO between that and thinking that woman shouldn't dress how they like.

But let's be honest - it is inappropriate to roll a skirt up shorter than the blazer length. Not least because it's a school uniform. We'd find it inappropriate to go into a bank and see staff dressed like that.

This has nothing to do girls or their choice of clothes. The older lads have all taken to a style like something out of happy days with shorter trousers, white socks and blazer sleeves rolled up. There are comments about how they get away with it and younger years don't too.

This thread has opened my eyes to how tarty can be far more offensive than I thought. I've accepted that and accept I need to adapt my view of the word. But it's important to distinguish between saying a loon is tarty and going up to someone and calling them a tart.

Same as commenting that a group of girls are bitchy and going up to one and outright calling them a bitch.

OP posts:
BitOutOfPractice · 04/02/2017 19:46

can't find tart described as meaning a prostitute in the Cambridge English Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, Oxford, Collins, Chambers and Macmillan."

You can quote Johnson or the oed or whoever as much as you like and we all know that none of us want our daughters to be labelled a tart. Because it is a derogatory term for women and girls. Intellectualise it all you like. But the kid in the op did not mean it as a compliment.

BitOutOfPractice · 04/02/2017 19:41

Sorry about the typos. I'm a bit tipsy

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