A specialist maths school in every city

We are in a vicious circle at the moment where we don't have enough excellent maths teachers actually teaching, to inspire more children to love maths, so that they become maths teachers.

But this is not the whole problem. Teaching salaries, and public sector salaries as a whole, are far below the salaries offered in finance and service sectors in London. Virtually none of my students become maths teachers. This is not because they don't love maths. This is not because they don't love teaching. It's mostly because they can get a much higher salary elsewhere.

Universities complain about a shortage of good home-grown maths applicants, and entry requirements, aside from a few big names, can be surprisingly low. I can see Universities leaping at the chance to support/mentor/encourage a selected group of strong young local mathematicians.

Can you provide evidence for both statements?

I don't agree with either. Yes, we should produce more STEM graduates but the number of maths undergraduates is going up year on year. The relative shortage of strong candidates has been caused almost entirely by the change in the fees regime: the top departments outside Oxbridge have expanded, which has had knock on effects on the departments further down. University management likes taking on more maths students because they are cheap to teach. One maths department at which I am an external examiner has increased student numbers by 60% since 2012.

And quite frankly university departments are overloaded enough already. I can't see any maths department jumping for joy at having to do (even more) mentoring/support to school students than we already do. My own department would riot at the idea of having to spend (more) time in schools.

As a teacher at a grammar school I agree with the environment helping (otherwise I wouldn't teach where you do). If they're having success in teaching able perfectionists that it's ok to get things wrong I would be very interested to know how they're going about it.
I know it's completely off topic but teaching 'failure' can be really important. The first test I failed was my driving test. I was 35. And devasted. My DH thought it was hilarious. His attitude is much healthier. I'm hoping we can raise DS with a bit of balance.

KCL do outreach to gcse candidates, but not any younger. I don't think they would have the skill set to work with primary children.

I do agree with you, primary maths teaching has not produced cohorts of children who come out confident in basic maths skills. I think that may be changing a little now. Then secondary schools try to teach more advanced maths on top of very shaky skills and at some point for very many children it all comes tumbling down.

We would, I think, be very wise to invest in specialist maths teachers at primary school. To strip out much of the content of what they learn at that age, but to make sure that what they do know, they know very, very well.

Going back to secondary, schools can try to foster the idea that making mistakes is fine, but it is very difficult for the dc who is such an outlier to see that that idea is actually true. To be at a school where you can bounce problems off each other and create and discuss your own problems feels like a huge privilege for my dc. I feel as though they will be going into university a much more robust person who will better be able to cope with the idea of not being the best when they get there.

Maths is the most popular A Level in my school followed by Chemistry. I think we need to be fostering the attitude you suggest in all schools - particularly the part about it being OK to make a mistake sometimes and that not making you 'bad at Maths'. I think there's a place for things like Maths specialist sixth forms but you don't start with that. The starting point HAS to be improving maths and science provision in primary to ensure that we actually are getting the most able mathematicians. There seems to be, anecdotally speaking, an issue with numeracy (and literacy) is some primary schools. If teaching was more respected as a profession this might help. Primaries need good mathematicians. A lot of our outreach work is based on supporting G and T provision in primary maths. I'm assuming KCL and Exeter do similar?

I've been pondering what, if anything to say on the thread as I have a dc at KCL, but its always difficult to talk about these things without accidentally coming across as an arse.

For my dc KCL has been the right school. Being amongst many other gifted mathematicians means they are thriving. They are much happier than they were at their old school because they now have peers of a similar ability. It's not just from an academic point of view that they are thriving, but they feel the pressure has been taken off them now. They can see that other people who they consider to be brilliant at maths make mistakes and so, they too can make mistakes at its ok. I think you can't underestimate the value of being with other people of a similar ability.

Exeters model might be better in that they can do other a levels at the college next door. That may have done them in a bit on the league table side, but league tables don't tell a whole story.

The selection of a levels is very limited at KCL. It is really only suitable for those who want to study maths or engineering and not much else. My dc loves languages and would have done a language a level had one been on offer.

They do offer a good range of extracurricular activities (including a chance to do languages of their own choice for a term or two), They take them out on non maths related trips, Sport is compulsory one afternoon a week. Their epqs can be on any subject they like, they don't have to be maths based.

I think I'm leaning towards the idea that there should just be a few kcls - for the very gifted mathematicians. Those who actually really only want to do maths and associated maths subjects. And they should have a boarding school option as Exeter does, so that its not just for those who are fortunate enough to live within commuting distance (albeit very long commutes for some students) of the school.

I don't think they are actually a model that would work if there were too many of the KCL type school. You don't want lots and lots of very good mathematicians being siphoned off into such a focused curriculum - they are many areas of work that require excellent mathematicians, that require other subjects. But for the sort of student that my dc is, the school is almost perfect.

These schools won't in themselves cure the STEM crisis, but perhaps they will help spread good practise in teaching maths. KCL does do various outreach programs including a course for teachers who want to teach further maths. They also work with year 11s from other schools to extend them.

We are in a vicious circle at the moment where we don't have enough excellent maths teachers actually teaching, to inspire more children to love maths, so that they become maths teachers.

Universities complain about a shortage of good home-grown maths applicants, and entry requirements, aside from a few big names, can be surprisingly low. I can see Universities leaping at the chance to support/mentor/encourage a selected group of strong young local mathematicians. And teaching wise, whilst good teachers can support the full range, others might be great teaching Further Maths A level and STEP, but hopeless at controlling a lower Yr 8 set on a Friday afternoon. From observation, very selective independent schools are willing to recruit straight from Universities, because for them the maths skills are often more important.

The shortage of maths teachers may be a different problem. Encouraging more young people to develop their maths skills can surely only be a good thing in the longer term.

I was a good mathematician, but in an all-girls school where it was the done thing not to be good at maths. We had hopeless teaching, and only covered enough of the O level syllabus to be able to answer a minimum five questions. I hated feeling odd for finding maths obvious, and with the gaps in my knowledge I struggled with the step up to A level. I used to wish I was at a boys grammar where I would not have been so alone. My daughter in contrast went to co-ed schools, with strong maths teaching, and thinks maths is cool. But this is the London private sector. I am glad talented state school pupils will have access to the same opportunities.

I often see KCL maths students in the street. Ethnically diverse, with a good proportion of girls. I understand that within a couple of years they have started getting very good results, and a couple of Cambridge places last year. This is despite the competition of the nearby Harris Westminster sixth form which offers good maths, again Cambridge offers, but a range of other subjects. Sixth formers can travel that bit further so it is not a bad idea to offer provision that will allow the brightest to aspire to top courses and top Universities.

DoctorDonna: I agree. The odd Sheldon-type maths genius is all Well and good, and we need their sheer talent to be supported and unleashed. But we also need a numerate population across all disciplines.

I was truly hopeless at maths at school, until finally in the year before I took the exam we had a teacher who understood the non-mathematicians amongst us, and patiently gave us confidence and coached us to a pass.

Maths is a useful framework for thinking. I am an arts grad and work in the creative industries. I rediscovered an actual enjoyment of maths at University, and it underpins the strategic thinking that is as important in my life as my creative output. Moving things around to different effect and choosing the best result. Looking at long term accumulative impact, problem solving, being able to do simple mental arithmetic gives you an 'instinct' as to when the management accounts in front of you don't quite look right...,

A KCMS in every city (or village) that supports future maths professors and particle physicists (and yay to that!) won't help with the future shopkeepers, vets, distribution managers, town planners, plumbing businesses, etc that keep us going.

They clearly don't understand the issue in Maths. We need lots of people to be good at maths. We need people like me (English teacher) to continue our love of maths from primary and share that love and destroy this it's ok/cool to be bad at Maths nonsense.
The grammar school I teach in is bloody excellent at Maths. Our Maths department is fab. However, the Maths department at my own Girls grammar was shockingly awful. I was told off for working too fast (in the lower of two sets) at the start of year 10 and proceeded to do nothing for the next two years. OFSTED reported that they 'relied on the innate ability of their students'. They've all retired now and it's a much better department now. However, my point is that pulling out the elite to just do Maths at Sixth Form will do precisely nothing to help the current STEM situation. We need inspiring Maths at KS1 and 2 and the lower levels of secondary.

Our very high achieving boys' grammar has been advertising for the last year for maths teachers. In July, the head emailed all parents in desperation, asking them to please contact him if they or anyone they knew, could teach the lessons.

Where are these maths teachers going to come from?!

Dominic was Chloe74 - we called him on it :-)

Exactly, rather destroys their promise to sort out the seaside town schools.

So Cities get specialist schools
but towns and villages get left with the dregs
nice one

It won't be as an alternative to grammars. TM is pretty wedded to the idea.

After the awfulness of the weekend I have to be optimistic about something. Seriously, though I think the funding crisis is building up a head of steam and quite a few Tory MPs might be worried about unhappy constituents wondering why money is being spent on this vanity project. Not to mention the difficulties of getting through the Lords. TM does not have a dictator's power yet much as she would like it.

Teachers / tutors at places like BRIT and the Royal Ballet School are often practitioners who have learned to teach specialist courses within a specialist environment. Not specialist teachers who would be in and out of school based teaching.

I THINK the teachers at the KCMS are maths tutors from the university, aren't they? They may not be good at explaining Yr 8 maths to non-maths-orientated students in a school.

The A level options are very limited at KCMS. It seems a great thing for maths geniuses, alongside more general provision - supporting maths within a wider clutch of science subjects, for example.

It won't be as an alternative to grammars. TM is pretty wedded to the idea.

This doesn't seem to be anything intrinsically wrong with this idea however with the funding crisis in general and the recruitment problems in particular it would seem better to concentrate on that rather than introducing further confusion into the system.

I think people are rather missing the point about ballet schools. The government has decided for many years to support national ballet companies and quite rightly makes a contribution to supporting the training of our future dancers, who need intensive training whilst still young Whilst they obviously select from those who seem to have the most potential that is quite different from supporting those who have a "talent for ballet". I am sure there are many more children who have talent than will ever see a penny of government funding. This model could only be applied to maths if we needed a tiny number of highly advanced mathematicians, whereas we actually need a pretty large number of very good mathematicians, as specialist teachers for instance.

If this was an alternative to grammar schools (which I'm rather hoping may be the case) then I'm quite happy with it but I would really prefer the govt to concentrate on the real issues.

I think there is a good comparison tbh and the model would work just the same for any subject.
Say there were the same 8 or 9 nine schools offering specialist STEM subjects or maths etc, the children still do the other subjects as well.
they would still take the same number of GCSE's as other schools.
Only the best teachers would want to work at the schools which would leave good teachers in other schools.
Taking the most able students from throughout the UK woulld probably amount to the same number as the music and dance schools.
Not everyone would want to go, there are lots of children who aren't a bit interested in pursuing these subjects passed GCSE and many only tale them as they are compulsory anyway.
Take out the dedicated talented and those showing potential there wouldn't be tens of thousands breaking the doors down to be admitted.

Why is it that no Government ever understands that all we need are very good schools in every city, town and especially rural areas where parents have no choice!!! Not specialist schools that few can access.

I think ballet and music schools are so specialist as to be of little value for comparison. They are more of a one dimensional vocational training. Very few young people attend these schools and they do not drive our economy. If all the best maths teachers go into specialist schools, what about everyone else at the other schools? The best teachers also teach 11 year olds. We cannot afford for these children to have low quality teaching or the STEM pupils for 6th form will never emerge!

we would be able to produce the finest scholars able to compete on a global scale.

We already do. The UK has a disproportionately large number of nobel prize winners etc. The shortfall isn't so much at the very top as that we need lots of capable people in engineering, software etc.

The KCL example seems to be doing well, but I'm quite dubious as to whether splitting out like this at A level (and certainly not earlier!) is a good idea. I'm doubtful that the 40% girls would be replicated elsewhere. And what happens to the many kids who don't know what they want to do at age 16 many of whom should be taking maths? If its, as with KCL, just maths and physics plus some computing or economics, whats going to happen to the other sciences - most chemists should do maths and physics, biologists chemistry and maths, medics some combo - it wont do british science overall or the quality of our doctors any good at all if they're in schools with the best maths/physics students and teachers stripped out. What happens to those superbright mathematicians who currently do something different with their double maths and physics because they aren't one-dimensional nerds and are quite capable of doing a language or humanity or arts subject too?

I think we do educate fine mathematicians at the moment. Surely we are needing to educate more pupils in STEM subjects at all levels, not just do more for the top ones? How will these schools function alongside new grammar schools? I think this is flawed thinking. How can these two types of schools exist together? How will they exist with other high-achieving comprehensive schooIs? Selecting out talented pupils is always a problem. It is very complicated.

The Government have been talking about needing more technicians. These young people are not the ones accessing MEng courses and then going off to work for City Accountants! They are the cogs of the engineering world. Also, the pay for many of these careers is a problem. London salaries are high. Higher than anyone pays for engineering graduates. This needs to change but employers will find this difficult. It is the same reason why maths and science graduates do not go into teaching.

Also lots of pupils do economics and maths. Maths goes very well with other arts subjects. What about MFL? Will mathematicians not want to study MFL?

I think there is a great need to teach a foundation course in Engineering alongside A levels. When at grammar school, many moons ago, DH had extension science lessons at a university and was actually taught by Professor Heinz Woolf. He also did a pre-architecture course at school, although he became an Engineer. This type of innovation has largely disappeared. He did Engineering A level. In those days it was a mix of practical and academic and meant the first year at univeristy was not too challenging (he says it was a doddle) because some of it was familiar. Young people should not need to go to a specialist school to do this; they just need a very good school.

I agree with Errol. There is a lot more demand for specialist maths (or stem)schools as there are so many more jobs in this sector. A school in every city would be better than just one in London.