Sexism in GCSE options

The DT electronic products was much more useful to my DD than the comp sci. Tbh I'm not sure that a bright kid couldn't pick up the useful content of the latter themselves quite easily if they have a raspberry pi or suchlike, whereas to build an electronic device with an etched circuit and laser-cut housing requires teaching and specialised kit, not just bedroom hobby stuff. From a scan of the spec I linked to, the engineering gcse may be similar.

ActuallyThatsSUPREMECommander

I agree that it is a lower status option, but that shouldn't make it "generally for low achievers" (Titchy).

user7214743615

It is not taken by many high achievers because it is not promoted to high achievers. It started off in the science bracket of most exam boards, and although computer sciences maybe being pushed as a buzz subject, it doesn't teach pupils the us of CAD, drawing standards, applied forces.

Excellent recommendations, user, those were my DD's choices .

However, she also did the DT Electronic products, fortunately they did 11 subjects plus optional additional maths. I don't know how the engineering compares to it, but it was extremely beneficial for her. It confirmed her interest in the subject, helped a lot in getting an Arkwright scholarship; led to a relevant EPQ in sixth form and the robot club, all of which contributed to a very good personal statement etc. When applying to good universities, excellent grades in maths and physics are vital but having actully designed and built stuff can make a difference.

GCSE Engineering is not required by any university Engineering course or by Engineering apprentices. It is currently not taken by that many students, see the tables:

www.bstubbs.co.uk/gcse.htm

and it has relatively few students who achieve As and A stars. I think it is factually correct to say that it is often not taken by high achieving pupils.

I work in STEM and am heavily involved in getting more people to do STEM. I wouldn't particularly encourage high achieving DC to take GCSE Engineering. I wouldn't particularly discourage them either, except that I'd rather they did Triple Science than Double Science and Engineering.

If looking for another STEM GCSE to go with Maths and Triple Science, I would recommend Computer Science and Additional Maths as better options for high achieving academic students than Engineering, but these may not be on offer.

oh, xpost!

Just re-read my response to noble, it sounds pissy, wasn't meant to - I don't think she's one of the ones who needs training!

Nothing springs to mind, Errol I'm afraid. 'Don't be sexist'?

Engineering is not a soft option GCSE. The two girls I know entering Engineering careers are doing so at Cambridge and Imperial. Both very high achievers.
Why - maybe concerns that they wouldn't settle in a class of boys, maybe concerns they were picking it for the boys, maybe concerns they didn't fully understand the subject requirements. Loads of reasons that are just questions to check out whether it's right decision.

Saying that Engineering GCSE is a lower status option or better suited to the less academic doesn't mean you're disparaging engineering as a discipline or a career choice. After all everyone acknowledges that law can be a great career for the academically minded but they've traditionally been advised to avoid A Level Law at all costs.

I have no idea about the GSCE Engineering syllabus myself but I don't read the people dissing it as being anti-tech, just having prejudices about that particular qualification.

noble - really? To much to hope you've had some about sex equality?

Errol
😀 I just spotted my typo

'the deity head'
quite a good DYAC for the way some behave

I don't know how the specification I linked to translates to reality, but if at gcse 'Engineering' is portrayed as a low-achievers option then there's a huge disconnect versus accredited engineering degrees!

many male teachers, for all of their training about gender equality, simply don't "get" it at all.

Not sure I've ever had/seen any teacher training about gender equality.

I thought the one which might be more 'aimed at low achievers' was the DT Resistant Materials?

I sat through the deity head telling us parents that the less academic could choose options such as hairdressing or childcare
I was livid
I work in early years and I've got a degree. I'm sick of schools telling the less well qualified they can work in nurseries because they can't
A level 3 qualification also requires an English and a maths gcse at a c or above to be included in ratios
It's not an easy option for underachievers

titchy
Maybe it's because GCSE Engineering is generally for low achievers

I think that you might be confusing this with something else or have that 'technology is hitting stuff with hammers ' attitude.

One of the less-patronising efforts aimed at encouraging girls into STEM is the Vex robotics competition- I'm not sure if its always the case but last year they were giving free kit to girls' teams. I guess the thinking behind this is that if a school has a Vex club, its likely to be male dominated so (a) if theres a specific girls' team it's obviously not a 'boy thing' and (b) the girls wont have the boys talking over them and taking over. DD is helping to run such a club for younger pupils for the second year now. Might be something worth asking about if you have girls who want to design and build stuff but aren't getting the chance.

Ha!! DD is the top of her maths, science and computer science classes, much to the chagrin of the boys in her class. Last parent's evening I raised the issue with her computing teacher about the social cost for girls taking computing, and succeeding where her male peers weren't.

"Oh No" he said "That sort of thing does not happen in our school" At which point DH burst out laughing as DD and I (I work in IT so I know all about the social cost of being a woman in STEM) simultaneously sat back, crossed our arms and raised an eyebrow in tandem.

It's my suspicion (and for background I taught IT for many years) that many male teachers, for all of their training about gender equality, simply don't "get" it at all.

My DD was actually refused a place in a similar type of class, on the basis that it was for low achieving boys. She was encouraged to take the food course instead (in the end she chose another academic class for this option). I don't know how much of the "problem" was that she was a girl, and how much that she was academic – maybe a combination of the two – but it was a shame because she had a real interest in obtaining the hands on skills and experience.

She is also one of only a few girls in the computer course, but it seemed like the school/computer teachers were keen for more girls.

We have noticed/experienced issues over the years with stereotyping/discouragement and sciences, and have seen that the same applies to boys in the school for languages and English. It's not great.

I agree though that wider attempts to encourage girls in STEM can be a little counterproductive. The "in science you can make lipstick and pink things!" approach is equally offputting to my DD.

Maybe the PSHE teacher hadn't read the specification? I just had a very quick look at the aqa one www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/engineering/gcse/engineering-4850/subject-content/unit-1 . Apart from sexist stereotypes, there is also unfortunately a lot of ignorance about what 'engineering' includes. People just don't think about what goes into the technology they use every day - without engineers there would be no cars, iphones, electricity, motorways, cat scanners etc etc ad infinitum. Why wouldn't a girl want to be involved in such a creative realm?

Just keep supporting your DD to make her own choices. In yr 1 a teacher informed DD that girls couldn't be 'builders' (she meant some sort of engineer really, not a brickie, but even so stupid teacher). Now at the far end of school - she was fortunate enough to go to a girls' school so her gcses in DT electronic products and comp sci were entirely girls. Her A level physics and maths likewise. Theres quite a few who'll be going on to engineering degrees this year, mine included. If your DD continues to be interested in engineering, it might be worth seeing if theres a girls school sixth form in due course which similarly normalises girls doing such subjects. (Though if she knows her own mind and isn't a sheep, it may not matter - back in the day there was only one other girl inmy a level double maths set and none in the chem and physics and it didn't bother me at all)

Unfortunately most of the initiatives I've encountered designed to attract girls into engineering have been created/signed off by the most dull uninspiring white middle aged men you will ever meet. If I was a teenage girl interested in STEM and I saw a poster about 'engineers make lipstick! And cupcakes!' I'd think wtf.

I do love Roma the engineer though.

Maybe the PSHE teacher is trying to figure out how to encourage more girls, what made one girl choose engineering?

How many boys have chosen dance, hairdressing, childcare or social work GCSEs? Is anyone asking that question.
The kids self-segregate, boys are more restricted than girls in options they feel they dare go for.