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Any senior schools which registering from birth means entry is easier?

37 replies

Sofa123 · 19/11/2016 12:31

Hi all,

My DS is 10 months old which I know sounds ridiculous to be thinking of senior schools, but having struggled to find nursery places by not looking until he was 4 months I've decided it's better to be earlier rather than late.

We are focussing on the independent sector and are based in South East London, but for senior school would consider boarding which increases the area that we can consider.

I recently found out that Radley College (just south of Oxford) uses 2 general entry points for 13+, one of which is called the Radley List - which you can sign up your son from birth up to the age of 4 and is an easier route (lower CE requirements) into the school.

My question is, are there any other good independent schools (principally at the senior school level, but lower levels is also interesting) that operate on a similar basis, i.e. if you register earlier/from birth its easier to get in.

Thanks very much for your help,

Sofa123

OP posts:
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CremeBrulee · 27/11/2016 20:53

"I’m hoping there is parking around West Dulwich station."

Even if there is now, that is no indication that there would be in 10+ years time when your DC is ready for secondary school.

Sort nursery, have a ponder on primary/prep but don't start planning DCs educational lifetime just yet!

AnotherNewt · 26/11/2016 13:30

"I’m hoping there is parking around West Dulwich station."

Nothing at all at the station, and I'm pretty sure that (once off the double yellows that are on the surrounding main roads) it's residents only with time limit on how long you can stay P&D specifically to prevent street parking being taken up by non-local commuters.

"some semblance of control"

It's good you realise now that this is only semblance. It's not real control in any usual sense of the word, and cannot be.

What is real now is the need to get registered for the nursery/pre-prep/prep you think will suit the best. I agree with needmoresleep that you need somewhere that prepares for a range of exit points and sends DC to a range of designation schools.

At 10 months, you need to keep your options wide open.

Sofa123 · 25/11/2016 23:33

Hi all,

Fleurdelacourt – thanks for the feedback on Heath House. I’ll definitely visit it at the next open day.

I’d like to use the foundation bus as well as soon as that’s feasible. We haven’t looked into the full details of the commute, but I’m hoping there is parking around West Dulwich station.

Thanks for the reference to Brindishe, I’ll look them up as well.

Needmoresleep – thanks for your comments, we are focusing on the earlier phases and have nursery largely sorted. The issue we have is most of the pre-preps around our area are heavy feeders into specific schools – so we need to look at the later phases to make a decision for pre-prep.

We will naturally make a final decision based on the sort of boy our DS turns into – so far he has been showing signs of being a generally boisterous and outgoing toddler; but we’ll see how he develops.

We certainly wouldn’t want to put him into a school were he is bumping along the bottom/or heavily tutor him to get into a specific school.

Happygardening – thanks for your thoughts, we certainly don’t intend to pressurise him, but see what type of boy he grows into. The point of the thread was to have options at all levels of academic selectivity, so we could then make a decision based on DS’s personality and interests – hence starting early so we can visit lots of places.

Harvestmoon32 – as I understand it the Radley list (early registration) is still competitive but less competitive than later entry points. But it’s very true that the school may change its approach over the next decade.

Dustylaw – I will try to take it easy !

Nowfindingdory – the commute is a concern – we are currently thinking Dulwich is probably doable from Hither Green for a few years (but need to check parking and trains into Victoria) then switch to the foundation buses. But any further and we would probably need to move.

Thanks everyone,

Sofa123

OP posts:
Nowfindingdory · 25/11/2016 02:37

Some of these schools are quite a distant away from hither Green. For pre prep or prep, why do you want to commute so far (central london). There are good schools around much closer rather than Comuting long journeys.

Bromley - braeside, Bickley,
Colfes, and some more mentioned above.

Travelling long distances reduces the times in the evenings you get to spend with your son. Independent schools offer a lot of after school clubs and activities so by the time you both get in it will already be late even more with long commutes in rush hour

Dustylaw · 25/11/2016 01:51

Lots of good advice. Mine is, yes, it's good to be aware at an early stage of options and when decisions might need to be made and applications etc but your best course now is to relax a bit and let the earlier years just happen naturally. It's hard when you have a driven City job and see the competition around you but it's a much more organic process with growing children. Spend time together playing and making up stories or whatever and find a local first school where logistics are easy and the children seem happy and some interesting work is on the wall - private or state. Take it all from there.

happygardening · 24/11/2016 15:09

Sorry on my phone too many typos to offer corrections.

happygardening · 24/11/2016 14:43

Sorry on my phone too many typos to offer corrections.

happygardening · 24/11/2016 14:39

Radley is a good school but it's definitely not my cup of tees.
OP if you want something to do over the next 10 years visit as many schools as you can, in both sectors, preferably ones with different approaches although as they are all becoming increasingly homogenised this is not easy. There's often lots of jargon in education get your head round it. Decide what you want and expect from education, what sort of education you would like your child to receive. Go with an open mind and discuss with both school staffand other parents the advantages of SS versus coed, super selective versus takes all comers, liberal versus strict and petty, etc. Are you after an exam factory carefully disguised as a happy non pushy school or one where which offers a non examined broad curriculum, ridiculous outdated uniform versus non uniform, niche sports. What are your interests does your the school facilitate them? How involved do you to be? Some seek hands of parents others, want involved committed parents. Most if not all will claim that their pastoral care is excellent, that they treat children as individual and want them to maximise their full potential etc etc. I firmly believe that if you like your choosen school and what it offers your DC in the majority of cases will do the same. A friend once said that schools don't change that much, I don't know how true that is but it does take a while to turn round an ethos and why change it if it works.

harvestmoon32 · 24/11/2016 08:28

Completely agree with Happygardening.

Enjoy your 10month old, focus on him thriving in a nursery/pre prep/prep and then consider senior schools with the guidance of the Head. All the schools you mention will have changed in 10years - new Heads, new ethos, new pupils, new staff. Review your list at the time. I know people who registered for Radley thinking it was a great non selective back up and their son's now have to have an interview and sit the pre test, even if they are on the list. It's no longer an automatic entry school. And it could all change again in the next 10 years.

happygardening · 23/11/2016 20:40

OP one of the great advantages of paying for education is that you get more choice. You can look at all the schools on offer and decide which will suit your DC's personality the most and therefore where your DC will be happiest. Secondly IMO the advantage of 13+ entry is that your DC will have matured a bit more and you can decide what school is really right for them. I suspect if our two schools of choice had had yr 7 entry rather than yr 9 we might have chosen SPS but as my DS matured we made a different decision.
We sent DS2 to what a very best could only be described as a mediocre rural primary school he moved to a boarding prep at 7 and did very well, many of our friends who's DC's also went onto very oversubscribed big names did the same. We took the view that a good prep will sort out any gaps in their knowledge and that they had 6 years to do this. Just to add my DS never went nursery and he didn't go to school till yr 1, he couldn't read or write (I'm proud to say I've never owned a flash card) he ran around outside having a great time talking making up stories playing with numbers, singing, playing with the dogs, riding his pony enjoying life, but it's never did him any harm in fact I think it only did good.

Enjoy your 10 month old DS, don't worry about senior schools, just let him and you have fun together, there is no urgency to register him with a school I very much doubt it confers any advantages, watch him grow and mature keep an open mind decide what you also want from education and in a few years time hopefully you'll find a suitable school that ticks most of you must have boxes.

Needmoresleep · 23/11/2016 10:39

You are still overthinking it. Look at the nursery and pre-prep options. Very young children are surprisingly different. Some thrive in the sort of busy and boisterous setting, which might crush a quieter more sensitive child. Go by feel, go by which environment is most likely to get your child ready for education in the broader sense, which includes curiosity, emotional and social skills and an interest in learning.

At every stage I think it is more an issue of keeping doors open. A prep school which regularly has a good range of destination schools, so the most academically able go to the super-selective schools, but a good cohort go to the DCs, Emanuels, Radleys, Sevenoaks, etc and a few to less selective schools like Shiplake, Frencham or St Dunstans.

The real cost of a long commute is that your son will have less time. Less time to enrol in after-school football (great at teaching teamwork and resilience) or explore interests. DS, via a computer game, became fascinated with Ghengis Khan and aged 10 happily explained to SPS during his interview that he wanted to be an archaeologist in Mongolia because he liked digging and liked history. He got a place, and they explained that they were interested in boys with curiosity who pursued their interests.

The process is not just about brand name schools/universities, marks achieved and ticking boxes. Talk to any City recruiter and they will moan about kids who have won the glittering prizes who arrive entitled rather than being willing to muck in. And read a few linked-In profiles. People who arrive via the longer, scenic route often have more skills in place.

In short, look at local options for your child and find the right one. Don't rule out state if you have a lovely state primary down your road. Do then have a go at 7/8+ options if your child is ready and up for the challenge. Schools like Dulwich Prep can offer a better 7-13+ experience than WUS or Colet (whatever it is called now.) The latter two will have a number of quite anxious, quite pressured children, and can be quite competitive places. And from observation, if a child has not been happy there aged 7, their peers' view of them carries through till the age of 18, with no chance of a fresh start.

If you get a 3/4+ place at Dulwich Prep, consider moving. Or if not think carefully who does the school run. The pre and after school times of the day are so important. If not try to have a parent do both journeys, and use the time to talk properly to your child. You parent, schools educate. Both are important.

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fleurdelacourt · 23/11/2016 09:39

Heath House is small. I don't know it personally but the results are good and parents I know there are happy. No sports facilities of its own - they use a local sports centre and the Heath.

The drive to Dulwich every morning is pretty horrendous (currently have a DC on the bus) - and not sure how parking would be to leave the car there and get a train in afterwards?

There's an outstanding primary in Hither Green - Brindishe - could do that and then aim for 7/8+ entry and the school bus?

Sofa123 · 22/11/2016 23:36

Thanks very much for your input Fleurdelacourt.

I haven’t visited DUCKS yet, but it’s destinations are very much local schools, so I would probably choose Dulwich Prep over it unless we love it on open day.

I like Alleyn’s Junior a lot as well and once I’ve had chance to visit the senior school that might sway things in our preferences from Dulwich Prep (though with it being such a heavy feeder into its senior school it doesn’t offer a lot of flexibility for later stages).

The commute to Dulwich Prep isn’t ideal, but we live in Hither Green rather than Blackheath (I just used that as a reference point as Hither Green isn’t well known). My wife would hopefully be able to drive there and then take a quick train into Victoria.

I need to research Heath House more, but it was getting mixed reviews on these boards and I wasn’t able to see it on open day this year, so needs further investigation.

I hadn’t heard of Bickley Park, but will look it up now.

It does look like we’ll have to support any 7+/8+ entry attempts outside of regular education if we go with any of the schools in this area.

Thanks again for your insights.

Kind regards,

Sofa123

OP posts:
fleurdelacourt · 22/11/2016 09:42

just wanted to add - if you are sold on Alleyns, then the best route in is through the junior school - there are a few different entry points - and once they're in they're in and transfer to the senior school is automatic. Competition at 11 is harsh - and at 13 there are only a handful of places on offer.

fleurdelacourt · 22/11/2016 09:36

Am local to the area you're talking about. none of the preps you're talking about will prepare for the 7/8+ - except DUCKS which finishes at that age.

Eltham College doesn't even start until Y3 so not sure that's what you need right now? Boys who go there at 7 generally stay through the senior school.

Any of the preps in Blackheath only go to 11 - Heath House seems to get good results so might be worth considering as well as BP? neither would support a move at 7 though so you'd need to do work outside the school?

Dulwich prep is independent of DC - but that's quite a commute for a v young child? They wouldn't actively support a move at 7 or 8.

If you're after the 13+ CE route into senior schools, have you looked at Bickley Park? It's a traditional boys pre-prep/prep which goes to 13 and has a good strike rate for schools like DC/Sevenoaks/Tonbridge.

Don't rule out the schools that go to 11 though - if Westminster is your aim then both the Blackheath schools do get candidates in there. Similarly both can also feed a boys boarding prep at 11 ahead of a Public boarding school at 13.

IminaPickle · 22/11/2016 01:42

I really hope you're travelling for work and formulating these ridiculous plans over a lonely hotel meal somewhere because this is obsessive.
HE'S TEN MONTHS OLD
Enjoy him now; by all means ensure he's in a prep and pre prep that doesn't preclude any of that aspirational shopping list, but focus on him and his needs and developing the child and man he could be not what you want Sad Angry

PhilODox · 22/11/2016 01:25

Where do boys go before Colet Court? (Well, St Paul's Juniors as it has become now)

Enidblyton1 · 22/11/2016 01:05

What if your DS turns out to be very sporty? It may not be high up your list, but then again the school place isn't for you.

That sounds a bit blunt - I probably could have worded it better! But I would definitely focus on the right nursery/pre prep for now and see how your DS develops.

Sofa123 · 22/11/2016 00:28

Thank you everyone for your thoughts

EleanorRigby – we visited Colfes and didn’t really love it. St Dunstan’s is on my list to investigate, but my wife doesn’t love the location. I haven’t looked up Eltham College but will do now, thank you for the steer.

AnotherNewt – Fully appreciate how ridiculous it sounds to be looking up senior schools now, it’s at effort to get some semblance of control in the complex London education market. But rest assured we are looking into all levels of schooling.

My son is already part time in Zoom Nursery in Eltham, which we are very happy with, but probably will move him to Zoom Blackheath for logistical reasons in a year’s time or so.

We are thinking about independent sector throughout, as mentioned for pre-prep our short-list presently is Dulwich Prep, Alleyns and Blackheath Prep. With the Dulwich Prep our current favourite, but we have yet to visit Blackheath Prep (scheduled for January).

All three have assessments so no need to register early. We will also probably add DUCKS/Dulwich Junior to that list (DUCKS is first come first serve, Dulwich Junior has an assessment).

We’ve only visited Dulwich College at the senior school level; we weren’t able to make SPS, Westminster, Tonbridge etc. this year, but would hope to see them in coming years and build a better understanding of their points of differentiation.

Obviously we don’t have any insight to DS’s academic potential yet, but I want him to have as good a crack as possible of the likes of Westminster/St. Pauls, preferably via their under schools (given how many places they take up in their upper schools). Hence the issue around having no strong pre-prep’s finishing at age7/8 in this area (that I’m aware of) and wondering whether Dulwich Prep would really support boys applying to leave part-way through rather than going on to 13.

Regardless of whether he’s at the level of academic performance to challenge for the aforementioned schools or the leading boarding options, it’s comforting to know which schools are potential options at other levels of selectivity.

I’m not particularly brand conscious in terms of schools, but having worked with the alumni of most of these schools, and seen their dominance in the well-known consultancy I previously worked for (which has become more pronounced over the past 20 years) and of course looking at their Oxbridge placement rates – I naturally am drawn to them.

In terms of what I care about in education:

  • Strong academic record (preferably without going too far into hot-housing and also an education that gives children a love of learning/ability of independent thought)
  • Not too strong a focus on sport, but prefer at least some space to run around in
  • Nicely balanced co-curricular (albeit with plenty of debating, DoE and music)
  • Not too concerned about single sex vs co-ed and urban vs rural

Happygardening – You’re right Dulwich Prep is separate from Dulwich College but around 40% of boys go on to there, it has a good blend of top London day schools but the numbers going each year vary enormously and as mentioned above I’m not sure if they will support boys sitting 7+/8+ exams. But we really enjoyed the open day and so it’s still our present top pick.

Logitically it would be very tricky to commute from our present location to St. Pauls so we would probably move; Westminster is more doable given my wife works in Victoria, but again we would consider moving.

My questions really centred on 2 points:

  • Are there are good pre-preps in South East London that prepare chidren for 7+/8+ that we’ve missed?
  • Are there other senior schools which there is an easier route in if your register early enough, such as Radley College? (which is really another way of saying cheeky routes into solid schools if DS isn’t super academic)

Fully take your point on the top boarding schools being similar in competitiveness to the day schools – my 2nd question was more on the next tier down or two.

Hopefully I’ve been able to clarify that I’m not solely focusing on the most famous and selective of schools, but I’m trying to do as holistic a review of viable options for each stage of education and levels of selectivity.

Like you I do very much like the ethos of St. Paul’s as expressed by the High Master in a recent talk I attended, but naturally would choose the school that best fits the child.

Reallytired – take your point that schools can change a lot over a decade, this is more an exercise in shortlisting than anything else, we would definitely review the schools closely to the time.

Lizs – I really liked Whifgift and the teachers I met from there, but logistically I think it will be too challenging from where we are based and probably wouldn’t justify relocating vs sending DS to Dulwich College or another nearby school (haven’t researched Trinity but would imagine something similar).

Needmoresleep – Thanks for your insights, I definitely don’t intend to be pressuring parent or have a goal to obsess over during the coming decade, but do want to be prepared regardless of DS’s ability level with the best viable options

Michaelahpurple – that’s what research is throwing up at the minute, thanks for confirming

Kind regards,

Sofa123

OP posts:
Michaelahpurple · 21/11/2016 19:56

Radley is the only one you have needed to sign up for young. It event hey are in the process of moving away from that system. Not something you need to think about otherwise.

Needmoresleep · 21/11/2016 14:29

Chill!

At each stage it is about the right school for the child. And children can be very different, quiet, confident, arty, sporty, very bright, dyslexic or whatever.

The most important thing is that they should never feel they are not good enough, simply because of who they are. This is a two decade long journey, where, assuming the aim is to produce a confident and capable adult, the aim is for the child to develop emotional intelligence, self-esteem, resilience and life long interests and friendships, along with academic achievements.

The right school and a supportive environment should do this. A "top" school coupled with a demanding home environment, may not.

My younger child has just left school. Both ended up happy and comfortable at Westminster, one at 13 and one at 16. However the first was very slow at reading, and in no way would have been capable of 7+, and the second only came into her own at about 15, and was told before 11+ that schools like Emanuel would be too much of a stretch.

They did not need to go to Westminster, and would have thrived elsewhere. I am glad we never had a specific destination in mind and let things evolve step by step. You honestly don't know whether SPS will be the right choice at 13 or whether your son's eyes will light up when looking round Shiplake. Yes DC did fine in the London day school system, but they don't all. DD says if she had her time again she would want to go to Gordonstoun. And indeed someone, who knows her and the school well, says it would have suited her.

That said by many accounts Radley is a nice school, and could be a good option if he is not a natural for the super selectives, and wants to board.

LIZS · 20/11/2016 20:46

In se London don't rule out Whitgift and Trinity in Croydon. Plenty journey down by tram , bus or train.

ReallyTired · 20/11/2016 12:21

Schools can change so much in ten years. It seems nuts to think about secondary schools. Surely it's better to see what kind of young man your child turns into. It's not just a question of academic, but interest and temperament. There is no way of knowing whether your child is an introvert or an extrovert at ten months. Will he have a passion for music or art or sport?

I think that finding a good prep school should be your first plan. The headteacher of the prep school will advise which secondary is best for him.

happygardening · 20/11/2016 12:13

If you live in Blackheath then Dulwich Prep is you obvious choice I believe it's independent of Dulwich College. And goes to 13. It's inevitable that most preps boarding or day will send a lot to their local school especially day schools, let face it if families live in Dulwich and you like Dulwich College and your DS has friends at/going to Dulwich College many would say why schlep across London to SPS (I definitely wouldn't want to schlep across London to Barnes from Blackheath by the way, my DH commented to SPS from West London and he hated the journey). My DS's prep which at the time was mainly fully boarding sent lots to Kings Canterbury (double anywhere else) because it was the nearest full boarding school and suited parents but it still sent children to plenty of other.

Secondly many top boardng schools are as hard to get into as the top day schools you've listed.
Thirdly 10 months old is really far to early to have your sights set on SPS etc, they take super bright motivated boys and you cannot tell what your DS will be like now, chill out, you don't need to be prepared at the moment as I said we registered DS2 for SPS right at the last minute and Winchester when he 9 and he got places at both. As I aid above find a good prep that sends to a broad cross section of schools including SPS etc and see what sort of child 7-8 years down the road and listen to the advice of your head. You just don't know how you will feel in 7-8 years time, I was very anti boarding up until yr 2 but my DS wanted to board so I went along with it. We had very much set our hearts on SPS (because I like It's ethos) but as time went by and my DS matured I felt it wasn't the right place for him and chose WInchester instead as I felt it's ethos would actually work better for him as an individual

AnotherNewt · 20/11/2016 11:05

Thus may not come out in the way I mean it, which is kindly.

You're going about this the wrong way round.

Finding a good nursery/pre-prep/prep is what matters right now
Because getting registrations in is important when the start point is only 3 years away, and unless there is a 3+ or 4+ assessment, it may be first come first served, in which case you may be too late for the popular schools already.

Have you actually visited the candidate schools for prep/senior? Because it sounds to me as if you've got a bit hung up on bragging rights of the name and less idea of the differences between the schools.

Setting aside the name/reputation, what is it that you think makes up a good education? What would you want to see a school provide? Including things things like on-site playing fields v urban site, nature of co-curricular programme, presence of girls.

And you may well find that actually you don't know yet.

Which means you need to keep options open, which is why getting the right pre-prep/prep now (assuming you've already decided private all the way) is what matters. The best foundation is somewhere inclusive, which has a range of leavers destinations - certainly at 7+ and probably at 11/13+ - so that however your DC turns out (and children change a lot in those years) they will be competent and supportive, and provide the right advice on 'where next' based on actual recent experience.

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