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Secondary education

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Original poster

Secondary school with no setting and almost no homework

68 replies

thedogatemyzebra · 28/10/2016 10:08

We had to move house over the summer holidays. So DD, who is academic and was meant to start secondary at a great grammar school, is now at the local comprehensive that we knew very little about before she started there. I was feeling ok about this, as it seems to have a good reputation, but have now found out that they don't set for anything (even maths) at any stage. DD was bored and frustrated at primary school, where they didn't have ability groups and she found it very slow going, particularly maths, and seemed to spend a fair amount of her time helping the other children. I'm now worried that this will happen again, and that she will be stuck very slowly going through the exam curriculum for 5 years. They also give almost no homework - she apparently does her maths homework while walking the short distance between school and home.
There are no other realistic schooling options where we are. Have others been in this situation? How did you support your DC?

OP posts:
Trifleorbust · 01/11/2016 11:02

Of course, and if my child benefited from setting I would want setting too Grin

As a subject head in a secondary, I can tell you that no-one wants their child to be streamed if the child is less able. Usually it isn't couched like that: they are 'distracted' or 'needing more challenge' (when they can't actually do the basics!) or there is a 'personality clash' with the teacher. It comes down to the usual: everyone wants what is best for their own child, and schools cannot deliver that to everyone.

noblegiraffe · 01/11/2016 11:01

A lot of the research I've seen about the effectiveness of mixed ability teaching over setting in maths is by Jo Boaler and there is a big fat question mark about her research methods.

DanicaJones · 01/11/2016 10:47

I'm glad dd's comp does set as it works much better for her than op is describing.

Trifleorbust · 01/11/2016 09:58

No, Danica. Results for the whole cohort are generally better when they're not streamed. And I get that parents of able students will see that as unfair, but the school will make decisions for everyone, not just the most able. I would still prefer to teach streamed classes because the work involved in differentiating for students from grades 0-9 is mind-blowing and unreasonable, but again it the school's call.

DanicaJones · 01/11/2016 09:54

Setted i mean

DanicaJones · 01/11/2016 09:53

Are results for the most able at maths better when they aren't streamed? (Sorry not read whole thread.)

Trifleorbust · 01/11/2016 09:42

I agree with you as far as your child goes (I think setting is better) and as a teacher, teaching streamed classes is less challenging, but educational research says otherwise: results are generally better where students aren't streamed. Either way, it's their decision.

DanicaJones · 01/11/2016 09:25

I agree with what you are saying op. I wouldn't be happy with that.

Original poster
thedogatemyzebra · 31/10/2016 16:11

I'm not just concerned about exam results. I'm concerned that 1) she should get a good overall education, and 2) she should be challenged, so that she enjoys learning, and also so that she doesn't get used to coasting because she is at the top of the class. The last thing I want is for her to go very slowly through the exam curriculum for years, because that's how long a few of the children need. Even if she then comes out with good grades. At the moment she is keen to work hard, but she is beginning to be bored in some subjects already, and appears to be finding almost everything easy. After half a term they have not yet done any maths that she didn't do at primary. There is almost no homework, and she has about as long at home in the evening as she has at school during the day. So it would be very easy for her just to become bored, lazy and to vegetate. She does do school clubs and outside activities, but I feel as though she is still at primary, rather than at a more serious school where she can really get down to learning at her own level, which is what I was hoping for. I hate the view that as long as everyone passes some not very difficult (for her) exams after 5 years, everything is fine.
The school responded to my email to say that everything is fine, but I will arrange a meeting. Without much hope though. And I'm doing some educational things with her at home.

OP posts:
ifonly4 · 31/10/2016 14:35

If my understanding is correct a GCSE 9 will be a strong A* or slightly above under the new system, so schools will have to teach to this higher level to give pupils the chance to achieve that 9. Lower achievers may struggle with this in mixed sets, but if your daughter is able she should be given the education to give her the chance of achieving those 8s/9s.

My DD's school do set for English, Maths, PE, Science, but no other subjects. Pupils are told for these subjects they are all expected to be working towards the same thing whatever they level, ie the best pass they can achieve. DD doesn't let the fact that there are lower achievers in her classes get in her way, she works really hard and often stays in at lunch/afterschool to do that extra for coursework.

If your daughter has the right mind set as well as being bright, then hopefully she can achieve good results long term. If you have any concerns then do raise them with the school and ask for her to be challenged.

pieceofpurplesky · 31/10/2016 08:52

As of this year there is no English coursework either

mintthins · 31/10/2016 08:47

Sorry, I just realised she only just started secondary, so that won't be an issue yet. Apologies.

mintthins · 31/10/2016 08:46

Are the Nat4 and Nat5 children being taught in the same class? We moved away before this became an issue for us, but I would have thought that there should be that differentiation at least?

LadyPenelope68 · 31/10/2016 08:38

Just because they don't set does not mean that the work won't be differentiated. Good teachers will always ensure that happens.

The majority of schools these days don't set for non-core subjects such as History etc, so whether she's at the comp or a grammar might not make any difference in respect of those subjects.

She may well have been ahead at primary, but you may find that levels out now she has reached secondary and she may well be with children who are much brighter than she us. As a secondary teacher we often find that parents are suddenly surprised when their DD/DS is not always the top of the class when they move on to secondary and there are more children in the year to compete with.

DanicaJones · 31/10/2016 00:46

Thanks Talkin

Wellmeetontheledge · 30/10/2016 21:22

The latest research shows that setting is not actually beneficial for the majority of children. The new curriculum instead encourages the mastery approach which calls for all chn to study the same thing, however there will be very well planned differentiation to stretch the more able and support the less able.

Ta1kinpeece · 30/10/2016 21:17

Danica
They make it hard, but yes, its there ..... under
"Performance by Prior attainment"
example here of a school that does not set or stream BTW
www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/school/136715?tab=secondary

DanicaJones · 30/10/2016 20:13

Can you still check how the high/med/low attainers do on the new dfe site Talkin? I know you used to be able to.

umberellaonesie · 30/10/2016 20:06

I am in Scotland and my son is just completing his secondary education.
The curriculum of excellence offers a broad general education for the first 3 years. Then the children naturally are set as in 4th year start working on their national qualifications. In your daughters case she will mote than likely be presented for 6 national 5 qualifications in this year. Equivalent to gcses. Then sit 4/5 highers in 5th year and then advanced highers in 6th year and any particular highers she needs for further education.
Curriculum for excellence is relatively new and their is lots of information on education Scotland website for parents and on the Scottish govt site. If you want some local Intel on your school Pm me. I work for a national organisation and I and my colleagues have contact with schools in every region.

Ta1kinpeece · 30/10/2016 19:53

Different schools do different things
look at their actual results
how well do they do with their high achievers
if they do well then they - as the trained teachers - are clearly onto something
if they do not, then ask questions

Original poster
thedogatemyzebra · 29/10/2016 10:51

I've checked the local private school (a long trek away) - they are adamant that they offer no bursaries unless you apply at exactly the right time, which DD has missed.
DD's school has a better local reputation than the one other which is commutable, plus it means a lot to her to be near to schoolfriends.
I think we will have to suck it up.

I'd really like to talk to parents of children higher up the school, but not sure how to meet them.

OP posts:
PancakesAndMapleSyrup · 29/10/2016 10:17

Op on the other side are there any good independents nearby that you could have a look at? If there are and you/dd like them would it be possible to apply for a bursary? Some do do up to 100%, however I obviously dont know your family financial income.

Thirtyrock39 · 29/10/2016 10:01

All teachers should differentiate regardless of setting or streaming - challenge high ability pupils extra support to low ability etc. Just because not setting doesn't mean they're not doing this ??? Even when setting and streaming there's stronger and weaker abilities within classes. Setting and streaming isn't always great as it creates 'sink groups' where low ability kids get stuck with disruptive kids - not great and kids are massively aware of where they are 'ranked'.

Original poster
thedogatemyzebra · 29/10/2016 09:56

The school is in Scotland, and the system is totally unfamiliar to me. Maybe not setting is more common in Scotland? I've asked to meet with someone to discuss the not setting. Apparently they used to divide the children into 2 sets only for maths, but decided to drop that and not set at all. I got the impression it was because of not wanting children to feel bad that they weren't in set 1 rather than set 2.
I've already decided that I'll have to do some home education of DD. I can do stretching in English, history and languages with her. But I don't honestly think that I can stretch her in maths or science, which were my weak subjects at school. And I'm not a teacher, at the end of the day. It's mainly the maths that I'm worried about. Can't really afford tutoring.

OP posts:
kesstrel · 28/10/2016 22:47

Noble - I take your point with regard to the completely non-setting school the OP is talking about, but I was thinking of our school, which does set for maths, but for nothing else.