ASD in mainstream secondary

Finland is often quoted as having an outstanding education system. it really doesn't. What is has is an outstanding work ethic, and parents who back up school discipline to the hilt

For example, ds has epilepsy, ASD and has at times threatened self harm.

sounds like he would be quite a long way down the priorities, I'm afraid, most epilepsy isn't actually dangerous, and threatening to self harm is so common it simply wouldn't feature at all.

I mean through age, or other plans

It's sad that there is not time for a bit of banter in classtime some do, some don't. A school I was in last week made a point of RECOMMENDING it during one staff meeting, whilst the closest neighbouring school bans it absolutely. All I'm saying is it is not necessarily down to the teacher. Even in a school which bans it, some teachers might, if they are supply, if they are near the end of their career, ( either through choice or other plans) if they don't rely on their salary to pay the mortgage.... other s might be too scared to, even if they want to.

This is an interesting thread. I am interested in getting the best education for everyone, but tbh, I just can't see how it can happen, in our current system. Too much is broken. I thank God my children are not in comprehensives ( one in grammar, one in special school) some classes and some schools are fine, but many I see are just hopeless ( is in totally without hope, not a bit hapless)

I'm pretty sure that tackling a hyperactive child to the ground isn't part of Team Teach training. That child's mother has a point.

What would you have done, he could have left the other child permanently wheelchair bound. Fortunately in this case the HT is backing the teacher 100%

I'm pretty sure that tackling a hyperactive child to the ground isn't part of Team Teach training. That child's mother has a point.

"You might know their names"

Sadly I think many staff will know my dc's name, because his behaviour is so challenging.

What they won't know is why.

:-(

He came back from school yesterday saying a child had shouted at him and called him an Aspergers arsehole. He fought with this boy, another child filmed it and posted it on instagram.

Ffs.

when it comes to learning SEND you have to do it in order. You want to know the life threatening conditions first, anaphalaxis, cp, risk of suicide, etc, then you need to know any legal issues, xxx considered unsafe near girls, etc, then other serious dangers, epilepsy, brittle bone, sickle cell etc, then you move on to the other conditions, which, if you have 200-300 students, realistically it is unlikely that you will recognise these students by sight before half term. You might know their names, or at least have their names in your lesson plans for differentiated material

I'm joining Moose too as it seems some people are on a mission to point out how unreasonable parents are to want their children's needs met and what saits teachers are for even having them in the class.
Verbena come on over to SN Chat it's far more welcoming and there are nowhere near as may loons post on there either

Longlost exactly the same sort of things happens in dd's school and it happened in Primary too

I'm not saying I disagree with it, I don't . I'm jut saying in the current climate it is classed as "arena of unsafe practice" (ie grooming) and is often banned. It is the climate that is wrong, not the teachers. I'm just telling you what the reality is. A teacher could be disciplined for this, and I have known it.

'fucking ridiculous' for schools to implement systems that help support their more vulnerable pupils sorry, but it is fucking ridiculous, and it prevents education, which is what we are supposed to be there for

Longlost exactly the same sort of things happens in dd's school and it happened in Primary too. I think it's a way of letting the children know their teachers are human. It has happened for years and years, I knew some of my teachers' preferences, my older children knew some of their teachers' preferences and dd knows some of her teachers' preferences, not least one of them has a dog with the same odd name as dd's dog.

another thing to keep in mind is the conflicting needs of many students. There was a "ruler" incident last week, as it happens, but the class contains several students who can't stand having their rulers touched ( ASD) and two who cannot resist touching them or control the urge to do so ( tourettes). Another class last week contained several students who couldn't stand sudden loud noises ( ASD) and a student who didn't even know he was making them ( deaf) as well as a teacher having to tackle one student to the ground ( ADHD) because he was being too boisterous around a child with brittle bones. ( and yes, the ADHD mum was up in arms, flouncing around the school, demanding sackings, training all staff on management of ADHD, claiming her child was assaulted, etc, of course we can't tell her about the brittle bones, that is a breach of confidentiality, )

Nope. Not highest in the country, just in our county.

They used to have very low levels of SEND. In fact they flatly refused to take my elder ds, stating educating him would be 'detrimental to the education of other pupils' (the only legal reason, other than 'unable to meet need' that they can use to refuse statemented pupils). Mind you, they refused every single statemented pupil that year for the same reason, regardless of what their SEND was. Some people fought them all the way, others like me chose not to put their dc in a school that clearly didn't want them and therefore wouldn't support them. As a result of those that fought the school had their backsides legally kicked and have done a total turnaround, which has turned out to be really successful.

I am not disputing that teachers in many schools will find it difficult to manage or that you find you can only manage such a system at your school to the detriment of yourself, pupils and progress. I have friends who don't find working with that particular system problematic, which is why I think, very often, it's down to school funding and things like electronic infrastructure.

Why on earth would it be banned to have class discussions about the pupils' interests outside of school. He's not sneaking off for 1:1 chats with these teachers, it's part of wider class discussion, which is how the teachers get to know their pupils a bit better. If that is banned and a matter for disciplinary action, then I will concede that things are worse than I thought.

I am now bowing out and hiding this thread, as I don't think there is any middle ground here, especially if you think it's 'fucking ridiculous' for schools to implement systems that help support their more vulnerable pupils. (I do recognise that you deal with a lot of unnecessary bureaucracy/systems, I just don't agree that in this particular case it is actually unnecessary.) Far easier to just shove our dcs out of mainstream education than have to actually consider how to ensure their needs are properly met. Just because the system your school in place is not fit for purpose, doesn't mean other schools can't/haven't come up with alternatives that do.

Longlost10 can I ask what you do to help remind yourself of the hidden disabilities in your classroom? What do you recommend as as teaching strategies for helping these children? What would advice would you give to other teachers? I hope you can share how to help

firstly, would like to point out that I am no longer a teacher, I left when my working hours had been around 90+ per week in term time, and I didn't have time to eat a meal with my childen from one month to the next. The volume of paperwork I was carrying around with me, running from lesson to lesson was beyond what a nurse is allowed to lift, and

I am still in and out of lessons in a variety of schools, although I don't want to say in what capacity.

As to how I would remember which children have which disability and the main points for keeping each one happy, well it all comes down to planning properly, planning a lesson for a class, and then looking through the SEND information for that class and rewriting parts of the lesson for each SEN in the class and naming their worksheets, etc ( because you cannot have confidential information out in the lesson)

This takes hours, it takes far longer to plan a lesson than to teach it. Of course the idea of having the time to do it properly is fantasy, but there are things that help.

Small numbers of classes. This is the main one. If a child has 5 English lessons in one week, why not have them all with the same teacher? I was in a school last week where in one subject not one single year 7 class had the same teacher throughout their time table, and teachers had 20+ classes on their register, some of which they saw once a fortnight. No one is ever going to get to know anyone.

Keeping the same teacher year on year, obviously this doesn't happen even where schools want it to, because staff turn over is incredibly high. Most secondary departments I visit rely on long term supply. Good, often brilliant teachers, who won't take permanent roles, because they are "incompatible with family life" and only do supply so they can walk out as and when the job becomes unreasonable.

Fewer teaching hours. if a teacher has 23 hours a week teaching, for example, then that is going to be say 23 hours a week planning, and 23 hours a week assessing....we are up to 69 hours a week then and there, without any of the other tasks, and please be clear, teaching/planning/assessing is no longer the MAIN JOB of teachers. It is now target setting, recording ( the detail required to record is unbelievable) statistical analysis, "mapping" whatever onto the scheme of work, (British values, ecm, this isn't planning, this is just forcing a whole lot of bollox into a format it won't fit into, it is a job which can take the whole summer holidays, easily) meetings, strategies, performance management targets, evidence, I could go on.

Get rid of the crap, and cut teaching hours per teacher....( it isn't going to happen, but it should)

discipline in schools
£85 billion per year is spent on state schools. More than half of that is wasted because children sitting in class rooms refuse to work. What is the point in this system? It is just properly insane, it wouldn't be allowed if the waste was actually tangible, for example if £85 billion per year was spent on building houses every year, then half of them immediately knocked down again.

proper discipline, real sanctions that can be upheld, forcing parents to be held responsible for their children's amount of work.... just think if all that £85 billion was actually used, rather than just being thrown down the toilet.

Every single day I see pupils who are not being given the opportunity to learn because of the behaviour of other classmates, slow working and too much chat is all it takes,

Verbena ds2 often comes home with funny stories/anecdotes some of his teachers have told him and he knows things like which teachers have the same (rather obscure) taste in music as him. They often recommend bands to each other. Unsurprisingly, those are the subjects he does the best in.

very nice, but banned, and automatically disciplinary behaviour in many schools, for teachers to have such conversations with students.

Well thank you so much for calling me ignorant. I was describing a system that I know is in place - and works, in a local secondary school. (Which happens to be the one with the best results in the county)

Now would that be the one with the highest attainment on entry of any comprehensive in the country, and one of the lowest numbers of SEND??? The one where virtually every student speaks english already, before arriving?

It is also used at the secondary my best friend teaches at in another county, so clearly not impossible to manage at all

No of course it is not impossible to manage, it is like all these fucking ridiculous systems, you manage it because you have to, at great detriment to teaching, pupil progress, teacher welfare etc etc etc

Dd wouldn't get a detention for anything,she doesn't even get a strike (note in planner)because they recognise just how stressful school is for her. The school do have a list of "alternative consequences" for children who won't manage detentions etc alongside, from what I remember one of them is writing out the expectations at home which dd thinks is probably worse than a detention.
Dd's SENCo emails her lesson teachers at the beginning of the year regarding dd's needs which means at least they are aware of the basics and her TA's would intervene if necessary but for me it is definitely preferable that her teachers are told beforehand. Not sure whether SENCo does it for all students though or more because HT oversees dd's support and so she is on her best behaviour.

Verbena ds2 often comes home with funny stories/anecdotes some of his teachers have told him and he knows things like which teachers have the same (rather obscure) taste in music as him. They often recommend bands to each other. Unsurprisingly, those are the subjects he does the best in.

I think the difference is that his school is a very well funded academy that has invested a lot of money in the school systems and is very good at supporting staff. There's a very low staff turnover, which speaks volumes. They have very high expectations of their pupils have very strict rules and get great results, but ultimately their success is down to making sure staff are properly supported and enabled to actually get on and do the job they're there to do.