Bring back secondary moderns?

yeOldeTrout Mon 19-Sep-16 19:40:42 Or merely someone the parents teachers gush about ;-)

Ds' (very mixed demographic, non-leafy, high FSM, high EAL) comprehensive has plenty of pupils who go off to do "good" degrees at "good" Unis. Most years one or two kids go to do medicine/veterinary science. This year's dux is at Dundee Uni doing medicine.

(Not so many applying to Oxbridge now, given that they'd then have to pay fees).

It's apparently 11th in Scotland (not sure if that is all schools or just state schools) for its Advanced Higher results.

But just as importantly, the school supports the less able to ensure that they too have "positive destinations".

And, what I like the most, is that it also encourages and celebrates sporting, artistic and volunteering achievements, as it sees it as its duty to develop rounded individuals, not just exam fodder.

I still want to know what a 'gifted academic' is?

Someone who gets all A* at GCSE?... at age 12?
IQ of 160+?
Or merely someone the teachers gush about.

"The comprehensive system is broken."

Are you arguing that an extremely able child categorically can't get a decent education in any comprehensive, because they are mixed ability?

Because that can easily be proven to be false. There are thousands of children who have achieved at the very highest levels in comprehensives across the UK. My dc's comp sent children off to do PPE and English at Oxford, off to study medicine, law at Russell group unis, music at Purcell and Guildhall. It happens all the time.

"I think that you are missing the point in that the children who used to get 5c at Sats, and were classed as high achievers by the Govt, are not quite as high achievers as those who get selected for the grammar schools (by and large) and the 11 plus is not the same as Sats anyway."

I agree. Which is why I think that even the very small advantage in terms of GCSE grades found by the Sutton Trust to be associated with grammar schooling is suspect, because the cohort of 'high achieving' children in comps that the evidence pits against high achieving children in grammars were categorised as such on the strength of being level 5 across the board.

One could of course have an admission system purely on parental preference and then move children around a year in, much more reliable. But this is exactly what many comps now do, moving children between sets, so grammars would just make the process much more complicated.

But of course most people don't really want that, they want a nice, middle class school with nice middle class peers for their kids. Ideally one that gives them a leg up for university admission by teaching stuff some other schools don't. But even that is catered for by comps, parents of clever, but not outstanding middle class kids who want them at university will advise their kids to do A levels in traditional subjects and tutor accordingly.

agreed. Setting is fine - that gives scope for almost all to be taught within their ability level for each subject with the option of sliding between sets, whilst being together for everything else.
Splitting off by ability at this age into different schools - not ok. Age 16, when they all start to specialise in different areas is a good point to do this.

The thing is that even if we found a completely perfect, untutorable, 100% accurate way of dividing 10 year olds into 25% clever, 75% non clever, it would still be an outrageous, psychologically and socially divisive thing to do.

absolutely, gifted children often have lopsided abilities.

maths

An 11plus exam requiring "all-round" ability could easily result in a truly gifted child failing eg the student with only average vocabulary but a gift for maths. Or perhaps the uniquely gifted writer or scientist who has dyslexia.

They clearly don't all study the same subjects, Y9 take their options. Some kids take the Ebacc suite, a lot of kids don't. Some take further maths, triple science, others take BTECs. Right down at the bottom end some take level 1 certificates, ASDAN and so on.

SWBGS does indeed take children from Maidenhead but surely TM wants a grammar school there so all "deserving children" in Maidenhead can get into one. Lots of the Bucks grammars take out of county children as they cannot fill their y7's if they don't - loads come into Bucks from Milton Keynes. Lots of people in Bucks would like to pay into an education system for Bucks children but the expansion of the grammars has meant that many of them recruit from neighbouring areas, and some have expanded their catchments over time. This must have a detrimental effect on the comprehensive schools in neighbouring areas.

Minifingerz. I think that you are missing the point in that the children who used to get 5c at Sats, and were classed as high achievers by the Govt, are not quite as high achievers as those who get selected for the grammar schools (by and large) and the 11 plus is not the same as Sats anyway. In some well to do areas, there are lots of level 5 children and as I have said, they can get a very good education in a secondary school, and, yeOldtrout, it has been said in this thread, the children study the same subjects. It is true that media studies and a few other less academic subjects are not found in the grammar schools, but the core subjects are the same. It is also true, as I said earlier, that some secondary moderns are not good and therefore a first, second and even third division of those schools is apparent.

The comprehensive system is not broken just because it can't cope adequately with the top 0.01% (or whatever). There's no guarantee that a grammar could either.

I ask because that's my experience. Its informed by responses from his teachers/school, to my questions.

And maybe I am (stupid) but I knew my DC was gifted from about 3, when we were chastised by school for having taught him to much... it snowballed from there. I have tried to move to good schools but never managed to have enough money to get to somewhere good enough.

The comprehensive system is broken.

"Genuine question, looking for personal experience not professional.

Why do you think your school/child would benefit from having a class of gifted academics that are forced to do the same subjects as your DC?

I ask because I honestly dont know the answer."

Two questions. What is a "gifted academic"? And what subjects are you talking about?

maths why do you think all students at a comp do the same subjects?

Genuine question, looking for personal experience not professional.

Why do you think your school/child would benefit from having a class of gifted academics that are forced to do the same subjects as your DC?

I ask because I honestly dont know the answer.

Borojoro

My children are at SWBGS - it's catchment is confused it does include part of Maidenhead but that is historic but it does not in general pull children from out of catchment- the current year 7 didn't even offer to all of catchment. Same with GMS only catchment offered. The residency rules have tightened also. GMS is fantastic- I would have sent my children there had they not qualified but many of the other uppers are not great! Look at those in and out of special measures!

Personally as I've said before I'd rather we didn't have selective education- and I have both in a very sought after school (doing v well and v happy).

Maybe all successful comps should protect their status by becoming academically selective grammars.

Perhaps we could arrive at a situation where there are simply no local schools which would be accessible to low achieving children, who could all then be gathered up in buses from different boroughs and educated in portacabins in a giant quarry, that grammar supporters could confidently refer to as a 'sink school'.

The more I think about the ideological direction this government is going the more desperately sad I feel. More selection, more elitism, more separation of rich and poor, separation by religion and class.

"Some have in excess of 30% high abilty children so why would they not offer A levels and academic GCSE's? It would be failing the children if they did not."

So why do you need grammar schools?

Obviously non-selective state schools are able to meet the needs of the high achieving dc's who are currently attending separate schools.

I was expanding on my post of 15/09/2016 17:57 and the comments by bojorojo about the Head Teacher review in Bucks. By the time parent appeals are heard then the school places are all allocated and the child is aware of the allocated school etc. Some HT don't take to appeal cases in Kent which it sounds as if Bucks automatically review. Without the review process though there can be no adaptation for circumstances so that isn't great either.

As a point of information, in Kent the decision to review is the head teacher's, but if the Head's review is unsuccessful, there is still a Parental appeal process.

In Kent the decision to review lies entirely with the HT. They might decide to take all of their 'not quite passed' to appeal or none of them. They can take Jonny who got 319 (pass mark 320) to review but not Sarah who got 350 and missed out by one mark on one paper. It is entirely up to the Head Teacher.

I think that grammar schools can be good for some dc but only because the rest of their peer group has been creamed off. It also is a substantial disadvantage to a child with dyslexia or dyscalcula who may not pass a test requiring pass marks in a number of areas, nevertheless that child might excel say at English and Science but the top set has disappeared off to the Grammar school so they aren't challenged in the same way. I think all schools setting by subject would address this - the 'grammar school' children would probably be largely in the top sets, but those who find a few subjects hard can be in a lower group. Likewise the dyslexic child might get extra support in English but be in the top maths set.

This whole idea of "best fit"... what it really means is narrowing options based on a presupposition about what an IQ test means about what kids should study. This is a narrowing of options in what they study & how they study. For kids who attend both grammars & non-selective schools.

Oh if only it were that simple, bojo. Unfortunately children are real people with their own personalities who are not always easily pigeonholed.