Petition against grammar school expansion

In favour of grammars. They do have downsides but comprehensives aren't doing what they're supposed to.
Better to have the option of a good academic education available to 20% than to nobody, as at present in some areas.

The petition came out before the Green Paper.

Why is there a petition? Isn't the Green Paper currently open for consultation? Isn't that the opportunity to have a say?

And I seem to recall reading that only 30% of parents of school-aged kids are in favour of new grammars. Should a policy like this overlook their views in favour of those whose kids aren't in the system?

It depends on what polls you look at, and the questions that are asked.

If you look at 'do you want to introduce new grammars?' against maintaining the status quo or abolishing them, then I don't think the data supports them.

If they realise that Grammar schools are vote losers rather than the vote winners they hope for, they would scrap the policy

The problem with that theory is that the evidence is against you. The majority of the public support the reintroduction of grammar schools. Only 20% are against. That may change over time but right now it does not look like a vote loser.

I am in favour of grammars. We are in a non grammar area, but there are a very good independant which select students by family income, and alos an outstanding comprehensive which the catchment houses' price are not reachable for the normal family. Unless these sort of selective by income are stopped, I think it is unfair for bright students from poor family.

20 to 30 years ago the fashion was for not streaming, or setting. I think you would be hard pressed now to find a school which didn't set for key subjects like maths, science and English.

I am still bemused by the fact that academic children can't be distruptive - IMO clever children find clever ways of creating havoc for a weak teacher.

I am for grammar schools- my comp didnt do any form of streaming therefore the majority of my classes were disrupted by those who I felt did not want to learn which made me annoyed and stressed that doing well at school was to be mocked and laughed at. Looking back as an adult I can see that it's not always as simple as 'didn't want to learn' and home life and a myriad of reasons may have been the cause, but still I felt my education was disrupted.

Makes me wonder if I can believe anything Leunig said.

I don't think the DfE want this. Nick Gibb (schools minister, Tory MP) said that if the evidence was against this policy then he would absolutely take that into account. Justine Greening looks like she doesn't want this. Michael Gove stood up in parliament yesterday and said that he hoped the evidence would be taken into account on this.

The consultation responses will be published, they won't be able to hide negative figures (and I don't think the DfE want to).

The consultation does say at the top it is for parents and young people as well as education professionals.

The Tories want to stay in Government. If they realise that Grammar schools are vote losers rather than the vote winners they hope for, they would scrap the policy. Theresa May may not see that creating Grammars creates Sec Mods by default, but just about everyone else does.

yeOLdeTrout Absolutely you must respond to the consultation. There is plenty of well-informed opinion that the D of E would like to get out of this. Having the No pile bigger than the Yes pile might help and certainly can't do any harm.

Thanks 4 that link, Noble. Sadly it made me think that I wouldn't have the right background to say anything that would be valued. Tim Leunig seemed to say that people who already work in education would have the most influence. Later he said that teacher retention was a huge concern. But how many education reforms have been introduced in last 15 years that teachers & their unions vehemently opposed. Makes me wonder if I can believe anything Leunig said. :(

YeOldeTrout and anyone else considering responding to the Green paper should watch this excellent speech from the Research Ed conference yesterday by Tim Leunig, the Key Analyst for the DfE who will most likely be reading the responses and presenting them to the SoS.

livestream.com/L4L/rED16/videos/135298702

It's quite long, but particularly the bit at 8:15, he says the consultation is not a fake, and he says how to respond - state your background, your responses should be clear, calm and evidence-based. He also confirms that if the evidence comes out against grammar schools that the DfE will brief the SoS accordingly.

Of course grammar schools have lots of ethnic minorities, EAL kids from certain ethnicities (especially Chinese) completely outperform white kids nationally.

If you create more grammars, then you're just lowering the entry score. What you're actually saying is that either

1. there are bright children out there who should be in a grammar school who can't get in because they don't meet the entry criteria
   This just means that having an arbitrary cut-off mark isn't right, there are children below the mark who should also receive an 'academic' education. This will happen wherever you place the cut-off, which is why cutting those children out aged 11 and putting them in a different building and giving them a different curriculum is ridiculous.

2. Parents should be able to get their children into a grammar school regardless of whether they are bright enough to meet the entry criteria or not. It's not about academic ability, it's about how the type of education offered by a grammar is perceived by the parents as more desirable. In which case, these parents need to be more honest about their concerns regarding the non-grammar options.

That's one thing they can't throw at grammar schools that they are'racist' or discriminate against minorities!

Apparently in the Times it says 26% of all Grammar School admissions are from children from 'ethnic' minorities !

I bet the anti's are gutted about that

Oh, OK, Portico - it sounded as if you didn't want grammar schools in particular to have to start spreading their interest.

Schools and teachers of all kinds have put up with distraction after distraction, change of system, marking, measurement, priority, policy, law, school management, all by government and all disruptive. I honestly think an agreement that government will LEAVE SCHOOL ALONE for 5 years could reap benefits for all.

HaHa Kate Hoey Inner City MP in support of fox hunting as an 'independent thinker' but her constituency office is next door to the Countryside Alliance office. I bet they never have dinner together in the MP's gathering and lobbying restaurant up the road.

I am in favour of grammars.

But create more grammars to take the squeeze and competition away from the scramble for places at current grammars. Ours has no catchment and it's a 10:1 ratio of getting in.

Ours gives 20 percent of places to FSM and lowers the qualifying score

When we visited many kids were from average working state school families like ours, mainly Asian demographic which challenges the stereotype of the entitled MC white kid.

Michael Morpugo had a bad experience after he failed the 11+. Blighted by an "early diagnosis of stupidity." If we're reduced to discussing which famous personalities to go along with. On radio now!

If Gove isn't in favour of Grammar Schools, that must mean that they are a very good thing indeed!

Kate Hoey's article reads exactly as expected. Someone who went to grammar school who attributes their success to their grammar school (because they are told that that is what grammar schools do) and can't comprehend that it is entirely possible she would have been just as successful in a comprehensive school.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3783576/As-grammar-girl-despair-kneejerk-party-Labour-MP-KATE-HOEY-dismayed-ideological-opposition-Theresa-s-plans.html?ITO=14

Kate Hoey has come out in total favor of the grammar school proposals!

I have always been a huge fan of Kate Hoey/ Frank Field because both of them have always been independent thinkers. They are not afraid to act against the consensus of the left wing if they disagree.

I hope Alison Mcgovern has got some bottle and joins with Kate Hoey !

if Labour were a party of 'Social Mobilty' they would at least have an open mind on an idea that was a Labour Idea in the first place !

www.dawilymail.co.uk/news/article-3783576/As-grammar-girl-despair-kneejerk-party-Labour-MP-KATE-HOEY-dismayed-ideological-opposition-Theresa-s-plans.ht