How do you decide if grammar schools are right for your child?

"He says he doesn't want to try in case he fails."

Similarly, many bright comprehensive kids do not usually apply to top ranked uni because they assume these institutions are for the snobbish rich kids. One of the advantages of grammar/private schools is the competitive environment encourages students to aim high, not low.

I don't live in your area but agree with going to see the schools. I would also if possible try to get some feedback whether that be from parents of boys at the schools or from the teacher. We were told in fairly blunt terms what the likelihood of passing was from Year 4 onwards I think and with a more detailed analysis of which schools would suit the child at parents evening just before Christmas in Year 5.

For the grammar schools here there is a "type" - very bright, confident, self motivated, able to hold their own. My DS is some of those things but not all. It wasnt an automatic fit but decided to try to give him options.

DS was always borderline - on a good day we knew he'd pass, on a bad day he wouldn't. He was also worried about failing. We did use a tutor and although she was expensive (almost £40 an hour) she had him pegged straightaway - she did have some influence familiarising him with test technique but her massive achievement was getting him to believe in himself and that he had the ability to pass. Not from me (who would say that anyway!).

He passed and started last week. It will be a steep learning curve but he's enjoying it so far.

Aww. Much hugs. Can he not " reframe" his thinking - not " pass or fail " but " to find out if the style of learning suits you " . You can be bright and not find the quick fire no repetition type grammar school environment isn't for you.

Having said that, have you looked at your " comprehensive" choices. We are a super selective grammar area and some seem to do well for the brighter kids still, and some are very much btec focussed.

I think it is vital to know what the tests are like. If they contain VR and NVR they are not based on the national curriculum or what children are taught in schools. Sometimes children who work well at school and make good progress are not always the ones who go to the grammar schools, even with tutoring.

I think it is widely recognised by nearly everyone, except Theresa May, that grammar schools do not aid social mobility. Poorer children or families lacking in ambition often do not get coached by anyone and frequently it is lack of ability to comple the questions in the time given that lets them down. In other words, lack of practice and exam technique.

Prep schools that pride themselves on their 11 plus results, prepare children well. State schools do nothing. Lots of parents try and tutor but those children who do not get effective help are less likely to get a place. Tuition for all with talent would be best.

In my LA, you withdraw from the 11 plus, not elect to do it. I even know parents who only chose secondary modern schools (no grammars) for y7 but still didn't pull their children from the exams. They wanted their children to be like everyone else and were curious to know what their score would be. They were very disappointed with the score so I have no idea who benefitted from the children taking an exam to gain access to a type of school their parents did not put down on the preference form! Therefore only do the exam if your child is willing to do some preparation, is keen to go to a grammar school and is not going to be upset at a negative result for the rest of their days!

Think you had better get your skates on pronto if you wish him to sit the 11 plus test. Both mine are at grammar school, we decided first they were going, and looked at local comp, as a back up. Local comp s great but ds was keen to go to grammar school, given the prep he did, the prep is a lot to do, especially if they are not readers like my children. We used vocab books and a variety of stuff on the Internet.

Buffalo, when I went we did 11+ prep at school. These days schools are not allowed to do anything, children do not see VR/NVR in our schools (or not in ours at least).

Our GS publishes a guide, a few sheets of question examples and a couple of past papers for 'familiarisation'.

I wouldn't do anything without preparing for it in some way and I don't think it is fair to send a child into something without doing the same.

Which is why the system is skewed. The independent schools around here start VR/NVR in Yr 3, there are far more independent primaries than secondaries here because they all prepare children to pass the 11+ for a free secondary education.

We are not pushy at all, I think hope DD will choose somewhere other than the GS for many reasons but if my child wants to do the 11+ then I will help her on the things not taught in our schools. Why wouldn't you? Or are you saying that on principle you would refuse to help your DC in this regard.

We have probably spent £60 on books and mocks, not available to all. But accessing the internet and free material made available by the GS isn't available to all either.

He says he doesn't want to try in case he fails.

We have had similar here OP, DD mostly wants to go to GS but of course is worried about 'failing' the 11+ (I hated it btw, the measuring of the lengths of our skirts, constant drive, etc., etc.).

My stance has been this:

The 11+ and or GS is/are not compulsory, no one is going to make you take the exam - entirely your choice DD and even if you choose not to take it on the day that is absolutely fine.

If you achieve the mark required, look at all the schools on offer again and decide not to go to GS that is absolutely fine.

If you don't achieve the required mark to go to GS then that is absolutely fine, it means that the school isn't the right one for you and you will be able to thrive and grow in a different school.

Basically whatever happens is absolutely fine .

We live in a similar area to you OP, but not the same area. DS has just gone into yr8 at our local comp. we were lucky that we had a choice as the local comp to us is a good school (many in our area are not).
I took DS to look around the 3 grammar schools that he had choice of. Also our local comp. He really liked the comp and the super selective grammar, but didn't like the other two grammars as much.
DS is also super sporty, rugby, football, cricket, athletics, so that was important to him.
Like your DS, he is also a worrier, so it was important to me that he felt happy with the school and didn't feel under too much pressure in his last two years of primary.
In the end we went for the local comp. Whilst he was likely to get into the two grammars he wasn't keen on, he was unlikely to get into the super selective grammar (mainly full of kids that have been through private primaries).
He has just entered year 8 and I can honestly say I think we made the right decision. His two best friends went to one of the grammars. They have an awful lot of homework and they have to work hard to keep up. DS however loves school, doesn't feel pressured by the homework demands and sits quite happily in the top sets in the comp without too much trouble.

He says he doesn't want to try in case he fails.

Oh OP, this is very sad. Is there any way you could encourage him to try and reassure him that even if he fails it's ok? Because if you can teach him this lesson it will be so beneficial to him throughout his life.

That's a really useful post nicp123

That's what I hope we can work to in this house when the time comes.

Personal experience here.
We knew our children were above average in most of the academic subjects so we visited all the local schools and Grammar S at the beginning of Year 5.
The kids loved getting involved in producing the lists of Pros/Cons
and putting their opinions across. They did not fancy following the crowd
from their primary and wanted somewhere different.
From the beginning we agreed that DIY preparation & plenty of practise were vital and we prepared them mentally &emotionally in case they were not successful.
I believe that if you have children with a love for learning and driven they won't need paid tutoring.
Grammar Schools exams are based on material taught in every primary school.
There are many free practise tests online if you need.
You might want to invest in a Mock Test (usually organised by PTA's @ Grammar Schools) if your child want to experience the testing environment before committing to the real thing?

Kathy, we are in a super selective Grammar county. I think in terms of the pressure you need to assess your own child's personality once you have seen the school options and then decide. The process need not be stressful if a) your child is prepared to put in some extra time over the course of the year above his other extra curricular activities and existing homework and b) you are realistic about his chances of success. Only you know where your child's likely ranking is in the class. I totally agree with pp about pressure coming from parents who want to be able to say 'he/she got a place' regardless of their intention to send the child to the school. Utter madness. It also fuels the insane tutor business' which Spring up around the selective schools. There is a tutor group business near me which charges £60 for two hours for your child to do bond books there rather than at home. They mark it and give it back three times for the child to do corrections in the whole book. No 1-2-1 tuition. Then they do mock exams at £120 a throw (at least twice a week in the summer holiday before) plus papers, papers, papers throughout the year and revision courses (£120 a go) expected attendance of around 8-10 during the year with some chap (who is not a qualified teacher) stood at the front barking at the kids and berrating them about their scores rather than actually helping them. This is not the only firm available to do the same . I take my hat off to the schools who try and make the test untutorable as this really does sort out the most able students not those whose parents are prepared to/able to throw a ton of money at it. It cannot be right to tutor your way into a school for years in advance and expect a child to keep up once there. They will burn out.

The other thing to bear in mind is that St O's has quite high entry requirements for the 6th form - something like 5 As and 3 Bs minimum. Like most selective schools, miss by one grade and you're out - despite the fact that they've educated you for 5 years. Quite ruthless.

It's a lottery really. I've had 3 dcs at selective schools - 1 would have been far better at a good non-selective. But you just don't know beforehand.

Kathy - if you're in Bromley then you might be thinking of St Olaves which is super selective (ie they take boys with the highest marks in their own test). Competition is huge and parents do start tutoring for the rest years beforehand.

If you're thinking of Bexley (Chis and Sids, Bexley Grammar or Beths) then your DS would sit the Bexley test and places are allocated on distance, regardless of scores - provided you pass.

Unless your DS is super bright I'd give St O's amiss and I'd suggest you put him in for the bexley test and do some preparation at home with him.

What a very sensible post bojo and I agree with everything you say.

I live in an area where the children often take the three tests of Bexley, Kent and one of the Bromley schools. There was no question for us as DD was very academic and the superselective grammar is actually our closest secondary school. We did worry about things going wrong on the day or meltdown but it all worked out in the end and she is loving her grammar school. A lot of DD's friends went down the same path. Key were that the children wanted to do the test, that they already had natural ability, that they had a good command of English and a wide vocabulary. For us it was more familiarisation and timing techniques at home plus some mock tests in a controlled environment to identify weaknesses and to get that whole exam type atmosphere. For others I saw them doing four hours a week, it was more out of desperation by the parents than anything else and it generally didn't really make much difference. If you happen to be in my area OP and have specific questions do feel free to send me a PM.

I live in a grammar school county and the 11 plus is taken by all y6 in about 2 weeks unless the parents withdraw the child. In all my years of observing this system, I think the notion of feeling a failure if you do not get to the grammar is overplayed.

However, In some families, years ago, failure was keenly felt. In those days, when you took CSEs and not O levels in the secondary schools, the problems of moving on from that were obvious in that the preparation for A levels with CSE work was poor. Lack of A levels cut out university. Therefore there may have been a true feeling of failure. With GCSEs, that problem has gone. As long as the alternative school is good, no child is a failure and I see many parents around me truly embracing the local secondary school and like the fact their children can do well there and even be top set - not achievable at the grammar school for obvious reasons.

The vast majority of children know where they "sit" in terms of the brightest children in the class. The bright ones know they are bright, the middle know that too and the lower achievers are well aware of their position. In my DDs class, it was fairly obvious who was not going to grammar school, but not one child was a failure. They had an opportunity to do well where they went and the vast majority did. They did not, and neither did their parents, spend all their time looking at the grammar school children and feel they had missed out. They knew the local secondary was a good school and were happy to use it and support it. Having said that, few were coached and clearly for some parents, the grammar school place meant everything. This is why children get fearful. Expectation and shattered dreams of parents. So try and avoid this at all costs.

I agree will above. Visit school now yr 5 - do check asap, the open evening for our grammar was yesterday. Your son needs to want to go. My DD (and we) much preferred it to our safe bet when looking around. Plus her friend at home has just started (won't it be good if I can get the bus with x next year) and her best friend at school is hopefully going.

The norm around here is to tutor once a week from yr 5 after October half term so you are not late. It does take commitment - DD's tutor checked how much extra curricular they were doing and advised against doing too much - the training several times a week may need reconsidering. Don't get me wrong DD did activities but It wouldn't have been doable being out every evening on activities plus school homework plus tutor and tutor homework.

Over summer we have done practice papers probably every other day/every 3rd day. I work and DD is in summer childcare so it is doable.

I've tried to take the approach with DD that whatever happens work will benefit her for her SATS and secondary school.

If you look on the 11 plus forum don't panic. There are some very focused mums on there. It has not been my experience in real life.

Test is in 2 weeks for DD. I'll be glad when it is over either way.

Some see grammars as a refuge from bigger, scarier comps so more suitable for shy children.

That is the exact reason for my son. He had aspergers and is very sensitive/shy, just like I was, and I am of course biased/blinkered, but I had a horrid time at my large comp back in the day due to bullying etc and being lost in the crowd, so we were very wary of the same for my son.

His grammar is also ultra-competitive particularly with sports so we were worried about my son's lack of sporting ability, but there are so many other shy and sen kids there that he's not had any problems at all.

The best advice I can give is to visit the schools and see whether you like the feel of them.

That's what we did with our son. The grammar was the only one out of six we visited where the teachers seemed interested - they were the ones doing the tours, sitting down with the pupils doing activities, etc. Sadly, the teachers at the others mostly looked disinterested and spent their time stood in huddles talking to eachother whilst the first years did the tours! He absolutely loved the feel of the grammar and how friendly the teachers were and it spurred him onto wanting to do the 11+ to get in there. Your child will be there for 5-7 years so it's important that they like the feel and ethos of it.

We are in the same boat OP, only a year ahead of you ..... Tests this weekend.

We have worked through a few books at home and bought a pack of mocks and DD is passing easily. We started at the end of June and have kept it very relaxed.

However, I am not sure that GS is necessarily the right place for her, very bright, not generally confident and I think I would prefer a less pressurised environment for her as I think she will thrive in a different setting. DH on the other hand .

That aside I don't really approve of grammar schools tbh and would prefer an all inclusive system as, let's face it, children with parents who don't put the effort in at home or pay for tutors are at a massive disadvantage.

I went to GS by the way.

I could have written your post OP. We've decided, I think, to put DS in for test & do some prep with him throughout the year, although not get a tutor. We can't really afford it & to be honest I'm not sure he'll go to a grammar anyway, I'm not sure it's for him. We just want to give him more options. I absolutely hate the thought of him feeling under pressure tho at 10/11. Very hard to get a balance