Eton or Winchestwr

My ds is at a state school (I have a dd in private), just to comment on the trips that apparently cannot be done in the state sector. The trips this year are playing rugby in SA, trekking the Himalayas, three weeks in the Amazon and doing the Harvard United Nations conference next year.

There are multiple smaller geography and language course trips too - ds trekked across Finland on cross country skis doing winter survival earlier this year.

We live right next to Tonbridge school and the facilities are amazing, we use them and ds has lots of friends there.

HPFA, looking at your post again, I think both of us are saying the same thing. It’s just that your “I rather doubt this” bit earlier on misdirected me.

We both agree that state schools can beat public schools in academics.

But you rather doubt state schools can beat public schools in facilities which is in line with my saying, ”. . . maybe not to the extend and quality like those of premier public schools . . .” when referring to services/facilities.

What else do you think I’m saying, chameleon43?

Not only that you don’t have a QEB acceptance letter, you don’t have an Eton one either.

No, I know nothing about you except that I do know your kids don’t go to QEB or Eton. Maybe you could tell me us more by perhaps posting some evidence?

It’s blatantly obvious, isn’t it, in my tons of written stuff, what I think about Eton and conversely my thoughts on Winchester?

”. . . that doesn't position you well to give objective advice to the OP.”

And what possible advice do you think you can offer the OP?

In any case, I think OP has her mind fairly made up by now.

peteneras - are you really saying that you think I'm jealous because I don't have a QEB acceptance letter I can scan and link to? Wow. You know nothing about me or where my kids go to school.

Must be great being you, assuming that you are inherently superior to everyone else.

not only have you written tons of stuff about Eton (being fab) but you have written tons of stuff about Winchester (being crap) - and that doesn't position you well to give objective advice to the OP.

chameleon43 Thanks for confirming that the intention behind my post was clear I'm not quite sure why it was misconstrued. I don't doubt that extremely selective state schools get results that equal top public schools (it would be rather odd if they didn't!) but I just can't imagine that any state school could match what I see at Radley College in terms of facilities.

OP and YouOK,

We went through this decision.

I asked my Ds the Wincoll v Eton question (he is now at university and he was at Winchester )

He said, once you've decided whether you want to play rugby or not (you can't at Winchester) then it is simply which school feels more congenial and where you think you will be happy for 5 years. Winchester is unashamedly intellectual but they have great facilities & teaching for sport , music, drama , etc. That said, if you want to win every sporting trophy going in a 100 mile radius then try Eton or indeed Radley.

He also said if you are trying to decide which school based on on whether you have your own room in 1st year or are in a gallery , you might be missing the point. The details are less important than you might think. Each school has its own ethos and atmosphere and the main thing is where you think you will be happy. Both schools will get the best out of an engaged and motivated pupil.

I proffer this from DS who has all the wisdom of nearly 20 years old

Well, OP has disappeared almost as soon as she started this thread (the next day) because she was told it was not proper to start another E vs W thread as there were many similar ones already.

This discussion has taken a different direction since - like most discussions.

I have written tons of stuff on Eton, YouOKHun, all you have to do is make a search under my MN name for them. I’m sure you’ll find insights from my postings that will be beneficial to you. If you have any specific questions, you may like to PM me.

That letter is not important to you, chameleon43, because you don’t have one and I do not have to tell you what possible use it could be for. For sure, I do have an electronic E version that I think you wish you have one too.

Yes, E is equally pricey but it delivers an all-round first-class education preparing boys to be leaders in their chosen fields. I cannot see W making a claim to any of this presently except that it is narrowly “very academic” and nothing much else. Even that, it seems like E is doing a better job according to The Sunday Times.

How many Old Wykehamist of note can you name in any fields at all in the last (say) 15 years 50 years compared to OE’s? Like you said, they are paying the same money.

am assuming your comments about Eton and WC are based upon inside knowledge and a good deal of understanding of how these schools work.

Sadly Peteneras's posts are based on trying to discredit one of those schools rather than objective inside knowledge of both schools. Luckily there are a lot of sensible PPs around with DCs at either school.
As an aside one thing that some of these results tables show is that W is perhaps not the school to extract top grades from bright boys who slack off and are not interested in academics in their teenage years. Some of these boys may have been a poor fit at the school from the start despite being bright enough. My impression is that Winchester places less value on exam results per se rather than learning and probably requires more independent learning and self motivation (rather like university) but it provides the teaching breadth and depth that will keep even the extremely bright boys stretched and well read.

the problem with all of these threads is that you get HG's pro Winchester spiel and then P's about Eton - both equally biased.

The only way the OP can genuinely know which would suit her son is to talk to current parents and pupils in real life, and to visit both schools again?

Yes, I know all about evidence (as a scientist it's my bread and butter). I'm struggling to see how this helps the OP as she has evidently decided to spend the money and is mulling over Eton and WC (and not any free school in the north London boroughs). Can you shed an insider's light upon E and/or WC Peteneras as per the OP's original question? (I would also appreciate that specific input from you too if you are able).

PMSL at the idea that an acceptabce offer from a grammar school from 13 years ago could be considered an important document! what possible use could you ever have had for it!?

Your point that state schools can rival Winchester in terms of services and academics is confused. Academics is only a small part of what these public schools have on offer - and that is what HPFA was saying.

You are also being disingenuous when referring to the astronomical cost of WC - when E is equally pricey - albeit superior in your eyes (please tell me you have an electronic version of that acceptance letter too!!)

Well chameleon43, I thought someone might say I contradict myself in my last message. But if you had read the whole thread closely in its full context, I was referring to a point I made earlier that state schools in my backyard could rival independent schools in services and academics, “if not better”, and it’s free of charge.

But it seemed HPFA had disagreed with that statement by saying, “I rather doubt this”. I then posted the Sunday Times link to prove QEB is even more academic than both E & W.

Also, a certain poster upthread had been at pains to say how very academic Winchester was, a point made over and over again but the astronomical cost of going there was not mentioned.

My point was, if it’s academics that I want, I would have sent DS to QEB for free - a point I made with evidence. Too many people have made all sorts of claims in an anonymous forum such as this one, but I’m trained in keeping records and providing real evidence. Thus the liberal use of links (evidence) in most of my postings here and elsewhere.

”. . . you honestly have kept your son's acceptance letter for QEB from 2003 . . .”

Like explained above . . . and that’s nothing - my records of all things important go back much, much further than 2003. You have a computer, have you not? Then make full use of it. Scan your important documents, pictures, movies, sound files, etc. onto your hard-drive and organise them logically. It helps making your life easier. It didn’t take me a few seconds to recall that QEB letter.

I take your points Peteneras and am assuming your comments about Eton and WC are based upon inside knowledge and a good deal of understanding of how these schools work. You're right, of course, that the whole point of education is to broaden the mind (by educating broadly and avoiding an overly prescriptive approach for the academically able) which is why the exam league tables you cite are such a piss poor measure of what a school has to offer. I went to an academically well respected comprehensive school (not many people have these in their back yards) and in order to achieve the levels they achieved the curriculum was very narrow. I see this familiar approach in the grammar schools in my area - the plug has recently been pulled on DT, music, a number of modern languages and Latin. They have to do it because of funding of course but it is not a broadening of education. Neither are they particularly socially broad. My experience of Eton and WC is relatively limited; I know probably about 15-20 in each school, at various stages, or having left in the last two years. I have come across one boy very unhappy at WC but given his approach to others I think he'd have struggled socially anywhere. Re Eton, I've met three unhappy boys there, this seems to have been due to finding it an overwhelming experience due to its size and rather dog eat dog nature. Two of them settled, one did not and left for a smaller school where he could be a day boy. boys I've known who have left at 18 from either school seem to have gone on to good universities and seem happy.

we find ourselves in the same position as you OP, our son has offers from WC, Eton and Tonbridge and he sounds very like yours in nature. We also didn't prep for these schools, feeling that what will be will be. They are all fine schools but WC seems best suited to our DS. I think he'd be fine at Eton but not as comfortable. We like the HM system (and the various housemasters we have met) and Div with its unapologetic unexamined nature. From what I understand from other parents there, their sons do not seem to be confined by the sole influence of their HM. Our DS was adamant it was the school for him from the moment he went through the door and has said that though he liked the buildings and facilities at Eton he doesn't really know what it's like as he hasn't seen classes and classrooms and met teachers, housemasters or pupils in situ. WC has been more transparent when trying to get a measure of suitability thus far but I understand why Eton needs to have such a process with so many people wanting to buy into the brand etc etc. We will see how our DS feels once he's met some HMs at Eton and got more of an inside track. Which one does your son prefer?

Oh dear, but why are you so dismissive of state schools?

I don't see how I was being dismissive, as I said my DD's school is great and we chose it over the private options available to us. In terms of facilities, though, well I live near Radley College and use some of the facilities there and I really can't imagine that any state school could match them. So I imagine it's the same at Eton and Winchester.

Peteneras - you honestly have kept your son's acceptance letter for QEB from 2003 and have attached it here - for what purpose?!

Your initial point was that state schools were as good as Winchester - but your most recent post is saying you didn't want your son (in 2003) to go to QEB because it would have been a narrowly academic education - you are contradicting yourself.

I know of state schools in my backyard offering similar services and results, if not better, for absolutely nothing!

”As someone whose DD goes to a fabulous state school, I rather doubt this.”

Oh dear, but why are you so dismissive of state schools? Really, you should be very proud that your DD goes to a fabulous state school. And I’m not lying by saying there are state schools offering similar services - OK, maybe not to the extend and quality like those of premier public schools - but most certainly their academic results can seriously embarrass even the two schools named on this thread!

State schools like e.g. the Queen Elizabeth’s School (QE Boys) in Barnet, north London, regularly outperforms the likes of Eton and Winchester academically and sends dozens to Oxbridge each year. Take a look at the latest Sunday Times league table (pg 6). At No. 8 position it is the nation’s top state school and I do mean the very top. It is eight rankings higher than Eton and a whopping 3 dozen places (almost) above Winchester, the supposedly very academic school and all that; both of these two public schools you’d pay up to £¼m to attend and graduate.

QEB is free, of course, and so is the Henrietta Barnett School (Girls) snapping at the heels of Eton at No. 17 in the league table. Like I said, they are located at my backyard and you don’t find parents of both these schools drumming into your heads over and over again how very academic they are.

Let’s be honest, if I’d wanted a very academic school for my DS, I would have sent him to QEB and save myself loads of money and convenience. He would have gone there even at one year underage and still perform magnificently. But Eton could offer him quality extra-curricular activities in abundance not seen anywhere else in the world and still take care of his academics. For example, how many school kids can boast of having taken rides in a Chinook helicopter; spent weeks in the middle of an African jungle teaching English and Maths to jungle kids; going deep sea diving in the Red Sea; or an opportunity to spend a week as a private guest of the prime minister of a prominent Asian country, amongst other things?

On the other hand, what’s the point of sending a young kid at the start of his/her vulnerable and impressionable teenage years and throughout, away to a school only to be influenced and indoctrinated by one individual of a housemaster?

Someone is missing something fundamental - the whole point of education is to broaden the mind. You do that by going out listening to various people of learning, of experience, of expertise, of leadership, etc. You don’t sell yourself to one individual to indoctrinate you so that you live the rest of your life to be a carbon copy of him/her.

I know of state schools in my backyard offering similar services and results, if not better, for absolutely nothing!

As someone whose DD goes to a fabulous state school, I rather doubt this. The local independent to me has as many after-school clubs for Arts enthusiasts as DD's school has in total. Don't regret DD not going there - she would have been unhappy in its ultra-competitive environment but I can see what people are getting for their money.

I have asked my DS about "morning hills" my DS (who should know as he was at the school) didn't do it twice a year in fact on at least two years he didn't do it at all!
Illumina is a very informal thing which occurs when the boys break up at Christmas, it's at the end of the day so it's dark and the tall medeaval wall around meads (one of the playing fields) is lit up with candles and hot chocolate mince pies etc are served and the school choir sings carols. In five years both my DS and myself only attended once, we had a longish journey home, I work weird hours and it's the busiest time of year for me and boarders are usualy exhausted by this stage in the academic year so we just wanted to go. It's inevitable that schools of this age will have some meaningless ritual but attendance by parents is usually voluntary and it's usually very low key. Through my work and those in similar positions to me (it's a small world) I know quite a bit about of other boarding schools many seem to be adopting more meaningless ritual as they seem to believe this is what parents want, and this may be the case, and that's fine but I personally can't stand it, I'm more of a slack hands off parent.
As I keep saying chose a school where you and your DS feel most comfortable.

Interestingly OP both have or about to have new heads. The new head at Eton is actually an Old Wykamist he as I'm sure you know has come from Bradfield, the new head at Winchester is from the super selective MCS Oxford which interestingly is a day school. It's inevitable that a new head will bring in changes and most parents at Winchester I spoke to were speculating about what changes the new head will make.
A current parent at Eton stated very recently on another thread on here that the new Eton head seems to be trying to provide a broader education and not push the academic envelope any further. In contrast the retiring head at Winchester vision was to make the schools USP the fact that as I said up thread above everything else it's an unashademlly intellectual environment (hence the non prescribed Pre U for example). The new head like the retiring one has a has a PhD, and has previously been been a lecturer at Oxford. This one has been educated at a state school and has very successfully driven up MCS's academic standards and I pretty sure will continue to build on the success of his predecessor. So for example a couple of parents I spoke too thought that the school could do more to ensure "weaker pupils" got an A/A equivalent at Pre U rather than an A (Winchester already has significantly more getting A's than Eton, rightly or wrongly many top universities are now are now increasing asking for at least one A or its equivilant). Currently I think some of the dons see the the A in particular as a true indicator of ability/genius and therefore are not teaching this level to weaker candidates, so for example DS's math teacher wouldn't teach boys how to answer the hardest questions because he believed if you really are a math genius you'll know how to answer them and thus deserve the A*. I think the new head will attempt to change this.
Both are committed to broadening access by offering bursaries to boys who would benefit from the education they offer and both I think are hoping to become or are completely need blind in the very near future. Eton I think already has a large bursary pot and Winchester thanks to a recent massive donation has nearly achieved their target. I believe that this is essential for both s hills.

”It's also surprisingly devoid of meaningless ritual. I loath ridiculous outdated uniform and meaningless ritual so this was a big big plus for us.”

Can you imagine the whole school getting up early and walking, in their school uniforms, to the top of a nearby hill to pray?

And they don’t do this ridiculous ritual once a year but twice!

OK, how about having a big party in remembrance of the removal of a wall over 150 years ago, just to be met with the sight of scores of candles illuminating another wall enclosing the school playing fields?

What humbug!

Needmoresleep I actually feel more like yawning.

Get the popcorn out and sit back....

Well OP, for a start, I don’t understand why others are telling you not to start a thread such as this one because there are similar ones already. Especially when it is doubtful they even have a child at either of these schools?

What then, is an educational forum such as this one for? And why bother to read this thread when you are “tired” of the two schools that’s clearly named in the title?

I suspected, OP, you must have read all the previous threads prior to starting this one and you confirmed that you did. Good for you! The thirst for knowledge can never be quenched.

Anyway, congratulations to both of you for the two offers. I’ll be totally honest and you don't have to agree with me, I think it’s a no brainer to even waste time considering the Hants school, paying so much for so little when you can go to the Windsor one for everything in the world.

What is it you are looking for?

Academics? Sports? Music? Drama? Art? Pastoral Care? Support? Friendship? Leadership? Oxbridge? Fame?

For paying between £40k and £45k p.a. (i.e. appx. £¼m in total) seeing that you come from overseas, the Hants school does not make economic sense if nothing else. I know of state schools in my backyard offering similar services and results, if not better, for absolutely nothing!

Congratulations to your ds.
Eton was the best thing that happened to my ds. He loved it and has made a bunch of friends who look out for each other through thick and thin.
My DS was a very lucky boy to have had five years at that wonderful school.