Eleven Plus

I used to work in a super selective grammar. I would say the percentage of pupils coached to get in went up year by year to the point that by the time I left a few years ago, at least 80% were coached. One problem is that the state primaries are not allowed to prepare pupils for the 11+, which widens the gap between the prep school pupils (about 40% of the intake) and the state school. I would also say that, as the amount of coaching went up, so did the number of pupils who struggled with the academic level as your husband described (though Manchester Grammar is not a grammar school!). I also came from the grammar school system and agree that it wasn't like that when I was at school. I was struck by a former pupil of mine who said that she had not been coached to get into the grammar school and her parents did not want to coach her younger sister either, believing that she would get into the most appropriate school for her. The sister was distraught and begged her parents to get her a tutor as all her friends had one and she believed she would be disadvantaged. They gave in and tutored her. Sadly, in the current climate, the sister was probably right.

Paid tutoring and diy tutoring is the family choice isnt it. If you can then diy tutoring could be the same even more intensive as you live under the same roof as your child it could happen any time not just 1 or 2 hours a week. I am sure as a teacher then you cant find a better tutor to your children as you have the skills too. I dont think you need a paid tutor if its maths and English and you know the format and there were past papers and especially you are a primary school teacher(given she is a bright child too).

You asked how many got in to Tiffin from local primaries.
Ds1,s year 60 in year. 3 to Tiffin girls . 1 to Tiffin boys
DS 2 , 60 in year. 12 sat the exams 1 to tiffin girls. None to Tiffin boys

Have a look at the thread here on Tiffins (sic) school. Sorry I don't know how to link. Some posters also say Coombe schools are doing well.

It seems they are all tutored. A friend of DD who got six offers at 11+ last year including LU and G&L wasn't offered a place at Tiffin Girls. In all fairness she was quite a way from the school, so even if she got 97% that wouldn't have guaranteed her a place if others lived closer.

I have different memories to you op.One of my brothers was tutored for a year for Tiffin Boys in the late 1970s - one hour a week (vr/nvr and English) with a small amount of homework. I think he needed the tutoring because my parents didn't involve themselves in our school work at home - they played with us but didn't read to us. My brother has a maths degree from an RG uni so he obviously deserved to pass the 11+.We definitely had a verbal reasoning/non verbal reasoning practice book at home plus a separate answer book (purchased from WHSmith in 1978) - I remember looking through them on my own.
I also remember being invited to tea by a girl in my class - her mother was a teacher and I was mortified when she told us that we would both be sitting an 11+ practice test at the dining room table before tea! It was embarrassing because I was clearly much brighter than my friend and her mother was annoyed (my friend didn't pass the real thing either).
I am sure there were many girls at my grammar school who had not been tutored back in the late 1970s/early 1980s but equally many who were to some extent and four of my close friends had one or more parents who were teachers.
If you have any doubts about the need for tutoring today op or at least 'home preparation' just take a quick visit to WHSmith in Kingston to see the vast array of 11+ books there.

Hangingrock, no DDs school did no prep as they wanted the girls to progress to their senior school.

It is simply supply and demand. The number of places has been artificially restricted by various legislation, while demand has soared.

In my opinion it's silly to enter any child for any test without appropriate preparation, but it doesn't have to mean using a tutor -- depends on the child though, as some might work more for someone external.

This article gives interesting background on the situation:

www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/help-and-advice/choosing-a-school/where-to-find-a-state-grammar-school

Did your child's prep school do much preparation?

We home tutored for elevenplus last year as DD was very capable. Mock tests in the spring helped us identify weak areas (not the PTA style ones) and we could focus on that. It seemed to work as she got the grammar of her choice. Conversely some friends who tutored didn't get places, some did - looking back as to why those who didn't get places was that realistically the child was always going to struggle and secondly the 'hand them over to the tutor' mentality meant they thought they had it in the bag but the tutor wasn't really working on areas the child needed and the parents didn't think they needed to do any work with their child who in theory they know best. That is more a subjective observation and not remotely scientific.

Thanks Rue

Catmuffin DD's primary (60 per year) has 5 going to grammar from the current year 6 I believe.

Another local primary has a single child going to grammar, who got a place off the waiting list.

How many children from the Sutton state primaries that are local to the grammars get in per class typically nowadays?

I don't think you can compare how things are now, to 15 years ago. For somewhere like Tiffin the competition is fierce. Suggest you visit the 11+ forum for guidance. DD's primary school gets girls into all the top private schools...yet no one, in recent memory, has passed the Tiffin tests and they all had tutors.

Interested bystander here.

Seems to me there are 4 levels

• paid for tutoring
• tutoring at home
• a small amount of test familiarisation done at home
• going in blind

Plus also

• leaving child to their own with homework and academics in general
• helping guiding and stretching at home

I wonder whether some who say they didn't 'do' tutoring, only mean the paid for kind, but forget the are able to do all the other stuff at home for free.

My DD1 didn't have a maths tutor at secondary, not even for GCSE.
But she did have me, a maths graduate SAHM, who did hours of 1-1 with her ...

I wouldn't send a child of mine into an exam unprepared. The super selective exams are hard and are distinguishing between levels of " bright ".

You should check what the schools you want actually test. Our local ones (Sutton and Kingston) test English and maths. They've all dropped VR and NVR.

My eldest is at a super selective grammar and my younger son is going there in September. They both had a mix of work with us and professional tutor. Plenty of kids have tutoring and don't even pass the first filter exam.

Their school has an ethos of working hard and they certainly don't want boys cruising along on their ability. Children who have been tutored probably get along better with this ethos than the children whose parents think they shouldn't make any effort.

When I went to grammar in the late 80s, nobody was tutored that I know of-we just all sat the exam at your own primary one week day unless your parents opted you out.

Now, it's held on a Saturday in a grammar school and it's a lot more of a big deal!

I was the same as you five years ago. I didn't think anyone should be tutored as they would then struggle to cope at the school. However, then I realised how competitive the exams were (have a look in the eleven plus forums website and you'll see what I mean!). To pass-they need to be fast, very on the ball and also very familiar with the types of questions asked as time is very short in the exam. Private schools (and some 'grammar crammer' high achieving primaries) will be doing 11+ Practice since year 3. If you do nothing, it is possible that they will pass and your child won't-not because they aren't as bright, but because they aren't prepared.

Having said all that-I didn't hire a paid tutor for either of mine (now in y7 and y9 at grammars) and I 'tutored' them myself.

Hope that makes sense!

Both my DD did 11+ without tutoring. We ran through past papers with them and did a couple of times papers before the test just to get them into the idea. Both passed , Dd1 got into ss grammar but dd2 only scored 98.5% which didn't get a place. I do slightly regret not having her tutored though she is very happy at the school she's in. If it's a super selective you are going for I would certainly think about tutoring as it might just get you the couple more marks you need.

Depends on whether the GS is normal or whether it's super-selective.

In many areas, the demand is so great that they only accept a small proportion of the entrants hence you need to achieve 90%/95%+ to stand a chance. To get that kind of score, yes, you need tutoring. Realistically, few "normal" kids will be able to achieve virtually everything correct without some tutoring. The super-selectives may also do written exams rather than multiple choice and also entrance interviews, both of which may need tutoring/coaching.

In other areas, it's more like the old days, where there are fewer entrants, so the school accept more "normal" pass marks of say 70%-80% - in that case, then, no, tutoring is not essential if the child is already working at high levels at primary school. But, you'd need to do some parent/child time with your kid to work through some past exam papers to give them an idea of the type of question, managing time, etc., and also the areas that havn't already been covered by the school (some topics aren't done until year 6 whereas the test is the start of year 6 and they do little in the way of exam techniques).

Basically, in lower demand areas, it's more like the old days before comprehensives - in our town, a third went to the town grammar, two thirds went to the secondary, no-one was tutored.

Where do you live Magical? Which school are you interested in?

As PP says, in a grammar county, the demand & supply is slightly less pressured than in non-gammar counties. You'll need to be mindful of catchments and deadlines (our local grammar changed their test and rules recently so you had to already be in catchment when applying to sit the test, to be considered in catchment for allocation. Previously you could move into catchment after the test was taken.)

Not every child needs paid coaching, but I think it would be incredibly naive of a parent and unfair to a child if they were sent into a test without any sort of preparation whatsoever. I think preparation, whether it's from the parents or an outside source, is necessary these days, if only because there are so many more families interested and so few places available.

I think it's sometimes a myth that only "genius" type of kids get into grammar schools. There'll always be a range of abilities within any group of people, so there'll be a range of abilities even within a grammar school: and some people's strengths are in one area rather than another. It's rare to be a brilliant all-rounder, isn't it? So it wouldn't be a surprise that some people "struggle" at grammar schools, just as they would in any other school perhaps?

If you haven't already, take a look at the Eleven plus website. Lots of info and help, don't feel daunted

We are just about to enter 11+ world here. I don't think that you need a tutor. I do think that you need to familiarise your child with non verbal and verbal reasoning at least as they are not taught in schools (well not where we live anyway).

We have been working through the Bond ten minute test books for VR&NVR at home, every other day for the last couple of months. Exams in the autumn.

I do know of children that were 'tutored to pass the test' and they got in but then struggled with what was required of them daily.

My theory is that (barring a massive off day) if you don't pass then the school probably wouldn't be the best fit school wise for you.