State or private for secondary?

OP, you must live near me and last year we did the three schools you mention. They're not impossible to get into with (quite a lot of) preparation and a reasonably bright child. It's not 10 applicants per place as there aren't any children that are only applying for one school.

Ds is now at one of the three (having had two offers) and it's great and he's very happy, but it is amazingly privileged in comparison to his primary school. His new friends are lovely, but my god they've no idea about what life is like for the majority of people. Not sure my son does either, but I think he's got more of an understanding having been to a state primary with high FSM. I agree with Traalaa, there is no way you can argue that the kids who go to private schools are in any way comparable to those that go to the comprehensives.

We didn't apply for Northbridge etc because, like you, I wasn't particularly keen on private so I felt that we'd only opt for one which we felt was offering something really, really good. Our local state secondaries are not Fortismere types, they serve very, very diverse backgrounds (properly so, not private school 'diverse') but we felt that we'd have far rather our kids went there than to an arguably less good private school like Northbridge so we could go for broke, safe in the knowledge that we wouldn't be devastated if he didn't get into any of the three.

During the 11+ process, however, I rather regretted that stance as I was convinced he'd get no offers, which would be confidence-knocking and it would have been nice to have a banker school if only to turn it down.

Erm, having written a long post, I'm not sure what my conclusions are. I still feel a bit of regret that he's not walking to the local school. Have you actually visited yours? How is it not good?

It's funny that you say that barriers come down, Traalaa, because at any of the state secondary comps near me it's obvious when the children come out in the afternoon that the white children are walking with white children, the black children are with black children, the Muslim boys are together and the Muslim girls are together.

I pass three state secondary schools on my school run and it's the same at every one.

At the primary schools it's the parents who don't mix and stand in their separate groups - black parents, Muslim parents, white English parents and white Polish parents at the one nearest to me. The highest achieving state primary schools have predominantly white middle-class children because the catchment area is full of houses worth £1-2 million. Those schools will be full of children who will do the 11+ and be destined for a private secondary school.

I have friends whose children go to state schools and it's pretty obvious that the children of middle-class home-owning families make their friends with similar children. Hardly any of those children will mix with the asylum seekers or estate children outside school.

The other thing about private education is that most of the children I have come across at DD's prep and now her secondary school actually love school and are enthusiastic about it, and most of the state school educated children I've spoken to see it as something to be got through and describe it as "boring".

Every time I asked one little boy what he had done at his primary school the answer was always, "maths and literacy." Another little boy was pleased that he was going to a particular secondary school "because we finish at 3.00." Neither of those boys can get their heads around the fact that my daughter through choice will go in at 8 am for the school choir and stay until 5 or 6 for sport, and go in at weekends for other activities.

I know there are some great state schools where children are enthusiastic and keen to excel but you will definitely find a higher percentage of those children in private education.

I think if you "want them to go somewhere normal" you should send them to your catchment school. Private schools cater to the rich and exclude the poor, so that is not normal. Comps whose students all live in in £1.5 million + houses aren't normal either.

If however you want to pay for a specific peer group - no poor children, no badly behaved children, everyone nice and MC so you will be happy for your DC to mix with them, (but not super rich which might make them feel bad because you can't compete,) and you have the money, choose a nice private MC school and don't feel bad about it. . Your money, your kids, your choice.

It depends what you mean by elitist doesn't it? Yes lots of private schools have a lot of v.normal families, but that's normal in a v.narrow way. One of the huge pluses of state education is that kids are part of society in a way they can't be in a private school. You'll get people on here who'll tell you that there's a huge mix at private schools too, but let's be realistic, as there won't be a lot of kids from poorer backgrounds, or from the local estates, or children whose families are trying to claim asylum (for example). Yes there will be a few on full bursaries, but even then they're relatively privileged kids, as they're from backgrounds where they have parents clued up enough to get them to sit the exams, etc, etc. The huge plus of state education is that all meet and in a big inner city comp (if it's good), kids thrive no matter what their background. Barriers come down, simply because they're all together. Your child learns far more about society by being part of it in a school environment and seeing that basically kids are kids.

There is also the basic economic point - if you move close to a good state school, the money you put in, you can get out when your children are older by selling the house. Money you spend on private education cannot be cashed in.

What I meant by my second paragraph is that you could have a larger choice of good private secondary schools in three years' time.

I'm in SW London so don't know about Northridge or Forest. You could start a new thread asking for views about both of them.

What I would say though is that a lot of private secondary schools in my area which weren't considered particularly academic a few years ago have really upped their game over the past couple of years, so that could happen in your area too by the time the DSs get to 11+.

Very few private schools in SW London are elitist nowadays. Yes, there will be some bankers' children with five holidays a year, but most children will have two parents who are working in order to afford the fees!

If you think you can only just afford it, be careful. There are always extras to take into account.

Hi,

At the rate school fees are going up the fees will probably be at least £20,000 per year for each DS by the time they go, plus extras, so you are talking about £300,000 for the two of them over seven years which is considerably more than it would cost you to move.

As you say, the standard of education of the private school will depend on where they get into, and it will also depend on the state schools and what they offer and what they achieve.

If you want them to go to a really good private secondary you may need to have them tutored for a couple of years before the 11+ to get them up to the standard unless they go to a high performing state school who do 11+ preparation and have a reputation for getting a high percentage of their children into private secondary schools.

There is a lot of competition for the top London private schools with 8 to 10 children competing for each place, but good state schools will also be popular so I'd advise you to check the admissions criteria of the two state schools you are thinking of to see if your DSs would almost certainly get a place if you moved for that reason.

If you really don't like the ethos of private education you may prefer a state secondary.

You are right that this topic has been done to death - and that in recent days!

It all depends on the schools. And if you do not name them you are unlikely to get focussed advice.

And if you are in London, your choice is not local school v a school 10 minutes away. You can look at schools which select on talent/aptitude (plenty of time to develop a sport, music, language), those with fair banding, academic aptitude if your DC are clever, denominational schools (plenty of time to convert) etc etc.

(And I know it is aptitude rather than ability, but you do not get many G4+ children turned down for music aptitude places)