State or private for secondary?

It's funny but the incredible (I think) location was the original draw for me. The heart of Shoreditch and incredible links with the City! I never hear City Boys or Girls alienating anyone on the basis that there's pollution.
Stoke Newington results were below national average last time I looked. But I know (I'm not suggesting you) that for many, the cohort is more imp than results.

@candycrush77 This perception is exactly what alienates the MC Mumsnet audience. I'm not condemning that concern, I think it's completely honest. If you could spend 5 minutes amongst the children and parents I know who are devoted and passionate about the school, I feel strongly that you'd change your mind. The parents I know that send their boys there could afford to send their kids literally anywhere. The result of this is that the intake encompasses extremely academic and high achieving kids who recognise the schools strengths and leadership, unlike schools such as NBH which serves predominantly as a dumping ground for those unable to make selectives. As far as facilities go, what it lacks in outside space, it makes up for by utilising outside resources and amenities. Who needs an indoor pool with the incredible refurbished Ironmonger row baths across the Rd and designated tennis courts across Islington?
True there a mixed demographic (my perception was closer to 50% and would dispute those stats on the basis of being outdated. But a large percentage of those are Bangladeshi whose culture attaches vast importance to progression and drive towards education. Have you ever toured the most selective school in London; Latimer Grammar? If not, you might be surprised to find that same cultural group dominating their intake. As for any other ethnic group, they are clearly as driven and motivated as the white middle class kids at these mediocre privates. And as for % of kids with English as a second language then even more of an achievement to have maths/English results ranked in the top 10% in the country!!
As for pastoral care, it dedicates an entire hall to yr 7 for the entire academic year. It is full of facilities and all kids are closely monitored and nurtured throughout that period.
Jamie Brownhill is an inspiration and I challenge anyone to come away from his tour without being infected by that passion.
One last thing!! They take the entire school skiing every year from yr 8 one and not one single child gets left behind because they can't afford to attend.
Thank you for letting me get this off my chest!

oops, meant 'bother'!

Agree with coffee about Stoke Newington. I know several kids there and it is v.good. They're all happy. We were too far away to both applying. :(

Naughtyb0y, I disagree that Central's not on MN radar - I seem always to be seeing posts extolling its virtues in a very eager attempt to make it happen. I don't see that it's an undiscovered gem because it's in the Islington booklet and its amazing results/ofsted are plain to see.

The reason why I don't think it's a honeypot (nor will ever be) is its location. It's very few people's local school as it's not a residential area. One of the most appealing things about state for us was walking to school and Central didn't offer that. Plus the pollution off the Old Street roundabout is shocking. As Traalaa says, the buildings are grim, you could film a prison drama in there without changing a thing, though it will be much more appealing post building works.

If we'd have had Stoke Newington as option I don't think we would have gone down the 11+ route. It looks great.

I have tried both systems at primary level and I could see the differences. Although the state school was outstanding rated my DS1 was bullied, unhappy, not stretched enough and felt lost in the crowd. My DS2, being shy was always left in his little corner. When they were in Y5 & Y3 I moved them to the local prep and they have been thriving, especially DS1 who is very bright.
He got offers from Tiffin, Hampton and LU and decided to go for Hampton only because we experienced the differences between private v state. As mentioned here before, the super selective private schools will offer so much more on top of academia. Visit the prospective schools and just try to see how your children will fit in, how they will be prepared for the future, adult life not only for exams, what friends they will make.
I also agree that not all the parents at private schools are super rich. We are very hard working parents and so are most of the parents at our prep school.

Candy, we looked round Central Foundation. Their results are v.impressive and the boys showing us round were lovely. There were a fair few white middle class boys from what I could see. The building's not v.inspiring though as it's just so old and a bit grim. In the end we didn't put it down as it's all boys and we felt DS would do better at a mixed school. Definitely worth a trip to the open day though.

CandyCrush, if your boys are "in with a chance" for City (27), Highgate (31) or UCS (40), then they should walk into Forest (not in the top 100) (I've never heard of Northbridge House.) Forest isn't bad at all and is getting better because of its location. Forest has a lot of scholarships and routinely offers 50% on academic merit alone. You could find yourself in a position of a scholarship at Forest or a fee paying place at City, for example. If you are considering Forest, you might consider Chigwell (not in the top 100) or Bancrofts (17) as well, both of which are also on the Central Line.

(I have listed the schools GCSE rankings of As and A*s from www.best-schools.co.uk/uk-school-league-tables/gcse-grades/ to give you some context. Obviously this is not the definitive list, nor are academic league tables everything, but it is a starting point. Coed schools tend to have inflated ranking compared to boys only schools. Girls tend to pull up the average.)

OP we are rural and live in a very wealthy area with "high performing outstanding" state school with places (DS1 went to one) and one of the countries top grammar schools fairly near by where DS2 got a place although the agro of getting him there would have meant I would have to have given up my job but this would have been off set by not paying fees.
Just to add that we are slightly different from many parents in that we believe in and wanted full boarding (DS2 had full boarded since yr 2) not state boarding but proper full boarding. I'm fully aware that many don't have the luxury of this option or the inclination to send their DC's!
DS2 has 5 1/2 weeks to go (gulp) before he finishes his education looking back, I have though very carefully about this over the last few weeks and looked at the large hole paying fees has made in our bank balance, I do not regret my decision to pay. DS2 has grown into the young man I hoped he would and more importantly. the young man I wanted him free to become and his school has been an enormous influence in this.
I pesto ally wouldn't pay for a "low key" school but that's just me in my situation. You must do what feels right for you and you're situation.
Fantastic teaching is not guaranteed either over the years DS2 has experienced the truely inspired, the good, average bad and bloody hopeless (as had DS1 in the state sector).
Sorry to be obtuse but what sort of support systems are you hoping for?

@candycrush you just covered everything that I was about to add. I completely agree and think it's very dangerous that people assume that they are protecting their kids from feeling troubled/being bullied by paying for private. I am not anti private BTW. I think your reasoning for sending your DC is the most sound and rational there is.

Given that the privates mentioned are Forest and Northbridge and disclosing the 62% pass rate (that of Stoke Newington) it seems clear that we are discussing North London in this thread. Firstly, I'd agree that it's impossible to compare even less good private school results to any state school; not only due to being selective but in that the majority of MC parents that send their kids there have tutored their kids to the hilt. This is often in an attempt to get them into a more academic private and resorting to these through fear of the state sector. But what's often missing from these threads is Central Foundation Boys. This school was classed as outstanding in all areas last year as well as achieving 87% GCSE (grades a-c). What's particularly astounding is that it has a far more challenging demographic than other Islington school and yet achieved these phenomenal results. If parents don't see this school, I really think they are missing a trick in north London. It's a hidden gem in a super central location and a really true comprehensive by definition. And it never uses its demographic as an excuse. I find it incredible that it gets so little airtime on mumsnet. Why do you think this is?

Candycrush my DS2 has been in private education since yr 2 so obviously I'm a great believer in it but I do think that 1. it doesn't mean your children "wont go off the rails" it's not just being in a "fairly rough environment" that causes this, children go off the rails for a whole variety of reasons, for example, I dont know the schools you're thinking about, but children in very selective school in both sectors feel under pressure and some will "go off the rails" and IME of friends in fairly selective private schools they too are under quite a lot of pressure as the bottom line is that most parents are paying for results and the schools are applying a lot of pressure to those who are not going to achieve high grades so some will struggle with this and a few will "go off the rails" and there will be other things that cause pupils in the private sector to go "off the rails" 2. they cannot work wonders and turn the unmotivated child into a highly "self motivated" one.
IME children are more cared for in the private sector but at the end of the day most will eventually run out of patience and of course are free to ask a child to leave or advise parents to find somewhere more suitable.
So IMO neither of these are reasons to pay for education.
We pay because we liked the ethos of DS2's which is pretty unique, and very much in step with our own, we're not paying for results because I do think he could have done equally as well at one of our excellent state schools. I liked the staff we met and I felt comfortable there, I did feel we were working in partnership, all pulling in the same direction, with DS2's best interest at heart and I never felt comfortable with the staff I met at DS1's state school.
It's a very personal choice and it depends on your beliefs, what sort of education you want for you DC's, what you options are in both sector and of course what you can afford. No school is perfect (in either sectors) it's inevitable that you'll have to compromise a bit but if possible you do need to be happy with your choice if it's really going to work.

Treat 13-16 and sixth form as two seperate decisions. If you feel that the local state school won't allow your DC to gain the focus, work ethic and condfendence that will serve them well in the future, look closly at your local private schools. I am not sure I agree with your rather blanket statement "but not really keen on the whole ethos of private school". Schools and their ethos' will differ, and state schools with affluent middle class catchments may be just as entitled as some private schools with a good mix of parents working hard to pay the fees and a good sprinkling of bursary pupils.

Get the GCSE results and you then have a good choice of state sicxth forms.

Cleo, why do you assume children who live on an estate are 'rowdy'?! You more than slightly give your prejudices away in your posts...! No point in my arguing with you as I don't think we'll ever agree, but yes of course there are lots of children from a range of families at private schools. I'm not denying that, but there can never be the same mix as there will be at state. Surely as a base line that's just a fact.

Candy, I think on the stats the 62% is comparatively impressive as if it's a true comprehensive they'll have children of all abilities. The private school selects, so only takes those that they feel can get the results. I can see what you mean about it feeling less risky to put them in private though!

OP, yes I feel that a good state is better than a mediocre private. I don't know your nearest state school but the three we put down at the top of the CAF were all what I'd call good - two had better GSCEs than yours, one had less good results (incidentally was the one I liked best). Money wasn't in fact an issue for us in that we don't have to make any sacrifices to go private, though of course there's always an argument that the money would be better spent on something else.

And 62% isn't bad in itself, it's really cohort dependent. It doesn't mean that your child has only a 62% chance of passing 5 GSCEs. Probably for a bright, supported child the odds are the same at Northbridge as at a reasonable comprehensive. (Disclaimer I've never visited Northbridge, but I'm guessing that at any state secondary there will be brighter children at the top than there because the bright private-school children will likely be elsewhere).

Anyway, I'm being hypocritical as we've opted for a private, I just still feel wistful about that decision.

Traalaa, As well as driving past the three schools I mentioned I also know children who attend other state schools who have told me about their own experiences, one of which is too dreadful to repeat here. A number of these children would not be described as middle class and they have not been having a great time at school.

One child says she feels out of it and feels inferior to those girls whose parents live in their own houses. She has good voice but won't join the school choir or clubs for that reason. I think that is very sad.

I did say that there are some great state schools where the children are enthusiastic and keen to excel and it's great that your DS goes to one of those and is having a lovely time.

DD meets all sorts of people out of school. She doesn't need to go to a school to mix with asylum seekers and rowdy children from the estate to give her a well-rounded education. Her friends come from sensible hard-working families who send them to a private school because they want their children to learn in an atmosphere where good behaviour is expected and the norm, and any form of bullying is taken very seriously and dealt with - and that is not the case at all state schools.

Expectations are generally higher for all children in a private school, not just the highflyers. A friend describes her son as "not incredibly bright" but he still managed 10 A*/A at GCSE because he was encouraged to aim for that. Surely that is a good thing?

As far as ethnic diversity is concerned, all private schools in London are full of non-English children. They may look English and they may sound English but that isn't necessarily the case. DD at her two schools has had friends and classmates from Italy, France, Germany, Belgium, Russia, Tajikistan, India, America, Canada, Thailand, Brazil and Australia, to name just a few. She certainly isn't missing out on the ethnic mix!

Sorry, I meant when your DSs are applying!

CandyCrush, I don't know Northbridge, but I've been astonished by the speed at which some private schools have changed from being arty and low key academically to shooting up the results lists.

Ibstock in SW London jumped 60 places in their A Level results in a year and now sees itself competing with Latymer Upper apparently. Four years ago one of DD's friend's siblings joined them in Year 7. She was not that academic but very, very talented musically which is why her parents liked the school. Their second daughter, along with DD and many others from her school, took the 11+ at Ibstock last year and it was very tough - several children said it was harder than Latymer or KGS which are both seen to be more academic.

Northbridge might seem more attractive by the time your DDs are applying.

Don't worry too much about the application process as far as your DSs are concerned. The children all seemed to take it in their stride - it was the parents who were fretting. Your current school head should point you in the direction of the schools where your DSs should be okay with the exams.

Sorry to interject (again!) and please feel v.free to ignore me, but just on those stats, of course the privates do so well academically as they select. So the comps are getting 62% of all kids no matter what starting point to A-C. That's pretty good comparatively. You say your two are bright, so they'll be easily in the 62%. Anyway, good luck whatever you decide!

Candycrush - he goes to one of the three I mentioned! Don't want to be more specific. I would say that while there are variations in the pupils within them (City possibly most 'mixed', Highgate possibly least), they are only small variations. They're private schools and the main body of pupils is nothing like a mixed state school. Probably more similar to a Yerbury than my kids' primary, but still very different.

Agree with Traalaa, all the y7 kids who've moved on seem to be thriving wherever they are, regardless of sector.

The application process was horrific, I'm afraid. I hated putting my child up for judgment and I was terrified he'd be rejected, not so much because I was desperate for him to go private, but because I hated the idea of him feeling a failure.

The reason we only applied to the top tier schools was because they were the only ones we wanted him to go to. If he hadn't got in, we'd have gone to local state school with all the advantages that brings. We weren't wedded to private for the sake of private.

Cleo, well where to start with your sweeping generalisations.. Okay, so all we both have to go on is our own anecdotal experiences, but in your own admission you are only driving past state secondaries, whilst my kid actually goes to one. He also went to a state primary. I'm guessing yours did not.

At his primary school there was a huge ethnic and social mix of families and in contrast to what you describe, we did all mix in the playground. It took a while mainly due to language barriers, but over 7 years of course you get to know other parents.

You might be amazed too to hear it, but my son just like your kids, loves going to school. This isn't an 'outstanding' school, it's classified as 'good', yet he definitely isn't bored and just like your children he has a wide range of clubs and activities to go to. Also, just like your DD, he chooses to get to school at 8am, because he has things he wants to do before school.

Most of the kids I know go to state schools and they all seem v.happy. Fact! My niece and nephew go to private schools and they and all of their friends seem v. happy too. Fact! It's great to see happy kids and in both sectors I'm sure we could find examples of kids who aren't happy too. This isn't about that though, as my original point was about the wider mix in a state school and how important that is.

You seem to be arguing that it's irrelevant, as kids will always stick to others from similar backgrounds. Well I'm sure you're right in some cases (even if just driving past does seem rather random proof!), but even if that were always the case, in most state schools your child would still be in classes with all manner of children, from a wide range of backgrounds. By putting your child into a private school, there's no chance of that.

My son's friends are from very diverse backgrounds and the friendships seem to be based on similar interests, humour and intellect. If he was in a private school he'd make friendships in a similar way. The point though is that his choice now is from a wider range of children. He's learning more about the whole of society at his school by encountering that wide range. I can't see how you can develop that if you're filtered off into the more narrow mix of a private school.