Tiffins school, Kingston

Pop I agree with you totally that different schools suit different pupils and indeed that Asian pupils do tend to have a good work ethic and do well academically.

However you missed my point on race and tutoring. The private schools do not have the particular issue that with selection based solely on predictable reasoning tests Tiffin was finding itself with a part of its cohort (it is in the nature of reasons tests that the genuinely very able will score very highly without anything more than six or seven tests for familiarity) that had been heavily tutored purely to that test to get their score up and therefore were not only not as able as their test scores would indicate but also not well prepared in terms of the actual literacy and numeracy skills they need for secondary education. The selection tests aimed to be a test of ability but had also become in part a test of whether parents were willing to subject their children to such an educationally valueless tutoring regime, and that underpins the skew you see . I am sure nobody thinks that is a sound way of selection. I do however know lots of people from Asian backgrounds who were not prepared to do that and instead made in some cases considerable sacrifices to send their children to schools like LEH and Hampton and I know plenty of non Asian families who trotted down to the hairdressers in Ham to find the secret telephone numbers of the tutoring factory. Private schools do not have such a high rate of tutoring going on because they are using lots of different sorts of evidence, including reasoning tests that they have invested in making unpredictable and therefore not tutorable, to assess not just ability and potential but the different dimensions of that ability and also whether the pupil has the qualities they know will enable them to thrive in their school, they go to some lengths to see beyond tutoring. On the whole they get it right and most handle the demands of the teaching that is tailored to their needs without problems, especially with all the support available. That is the comment I have heard from Asian parents, that their investment is worthwhile because their children are not on the continuing treadmill that some of their Tiffin peers are. However lets hope that model of selection is what Tiffin have moved to and have not just decided that if they are going to have heavily tutored cohorts then they might as well have been tutored in Literacy and Numeracy as well.......

OP-it seems you have made your decision.Very often one has to go with gut instinct and there is nothing wrong with that despite with all this information on this thread.I am reminded of a family friend who had three sons,one went to Tiffin,one to KCS and one to a state comprehensive(Richard Challoner).The mother was a secondary school teacher so knew a bit about education and all 3 boys did well with the comprehensive boy becoming a maths teacher so I want to show this friend was very pragmatic and chose the schools most suited to her sons and taking their abilities and personalities into account.Take this into consideration especially if you have other children.
I do wish to comment on recent posts:
RACE
Does this matter?My son goes to the organised overseas trips (classics trip)and everyone had British passports and no one had a foreign one.I do not see this as a issue.Many studies have shown it Is the Chinese and Asian communities that do well academically but it is the poor white and black backgrounds that struggle.I know there are many socio economic factors at play here and indeed my friend is a parent governor at a North London primary and they are trying to target and help these groups with special reading classes which is laudable.I am trying to point out that the cohort at Tiffin is a reflection of what maybe is happening in the country as a whole.
TUTORING
In a cohort of 150,you will find some are heavily tutored,some have parental help and some left to their own devices.I would be very surprised to extrapolate that the whole cohort is tutored .I suspect this is true at other schools not just Tiffin and particularly the independent ones.Indeed I would say it is more rife at the private schools as it is these parents that can afford the exorbitant hourly rate these tutors charge in this neck of the woods.
FACILITIES
KCS charges £21k KGS £18K I estimate Tiffin earns £5.5 to £7k centrally per student.The school works hard behind the scenes to plug the gap with fundraising and donations and is a proud school but it is difficult to compare like with like.
RESULTS
Tiffin has a valued added score of 1043 which is not too shabby,remember anything over a 1000 is good and as the figure suggests, value is being added.Rated 18th best in the country by the Sunday Times and for an offbeat recommendation look up Tatler.Rated outstanding by Ofsted.There are lunchtime maths clubs run by older boys to help those in difficulty.
OP-I hope this helps.

Yeah just a factual comment, didn't realise it was only 70%, it looks more than that - recent cricket match against them and all of the players were in the 70% for example.

The Head of Sport at Tiffin once said, if you come here then be prepared to lose at sports. And the cricket pitches are the worst in the area - Tiffin was dropped by Esher CC from being used as one of their satellite grounds this year due to the poor state (dangerous) state of their pitches.

strix the comment would be off if it were racist but it is a fact the Tiffin has almost 70% BME pupils compared with 45% in schools in the borough (lower in some of the neighbouring feeder boroughs) as a whole. Coombe which as we have discussed has similar results for it's top sets has 50%. Greycourt, another outstanding state school that achieves comparable results in top sets, in the neighbouring borough but similarly within a short distance of the Tiffins has 35%. Meanwhile Tiffin has only 2% of pupils with FSM whilst the figure is 9% in the borough as a whole (with 14% of children living in poverty). Coombe has 13%. Greycourt has 17%. This is the source of some of these numbers, the rest are easy to find online www.kingston.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/324/jsna_core_data_set_201314.pdf These are statistics gathered by local boroughs to monitor whether their resources, particularly educational resources, are being used in a fair way and that the most disadvantaged are being supported. What they indicate is that the Tiffins are not reflecting the social make up of the communities they select from and are failing to select on ability regardless of background and therefore failing to be a vehicle for social mobility, the reason we have state funded selective schools in the first place. they were never meant for middle class parents who didn't want their precious clever children to have to mix with the rif raf

The tutoring culture, especially the one associated with reasoning tests that the schools had allowed (probably for financial reasons to be fair) to become predictable which consisted of hours of mind numbingly boring repetitive completion of test papers to inch up the scores of the not quite able enough to achieve the required score from native ability (which the genuinely most able can achieve without tutoring) has to be a prime suspect for this disparity between the pupils walking through the gates of Tiffin and the wider community. It also led to a lot of misery for a lot of children. It was a challenge to self esteem for those who "failed", most of whom are bright and capable of doing well in the top sets at any outstanding state school as Coombe and Greycourt demonstrate, or in private schools that get slightly better academic results (though probably not much difference in terms of university outcomes). It had very little added value educationally, except perhaps in terms of work ethic. However how much better to inspire a work ethic in children by stimulating them to want to learn by studying something that is educational and interesting. And once a pupil gets in as a result of years of this sort of tutoring they are ill equipped to keep up with the speed and nature of the teaching at Tiffin hence the continuing need for tutoring, and I suspect the reason Tiffin finally addressed the issue. Let's hope the new test regime has bought an end to this racket.

I don't think anyone would object to parents supporting their children in learning what is required to do their best in an exam, timing, those parts of the curriculum not covered, etc. That they can do themselves or with the help of a responsible tutor who will make it a positive educational experience. However the combination of anxious parents and tutors who exploit that anxiety has led to a lot of practises that damage children's lives. None of the admissions tests for selective schools should require years of tutoring, excessive repetitive practise of test papers, children to be put under pressure and / or deprived of a chance to play and have a normal childhood. The private schools are by and large quite good at spotting ability and potential without that requirement. Let's hope Tiffin have got there too.

As to why people wouldn't want to go to Tiffin, I think that has already been said, seeking better resources, a wider focus on sport and the arts, worries about the pressure and the cohort........ Finding a school for your child isn't a horse race with just one finishing post, it is about finding the right course in the first place.

Strix, I assume that comment is directed at me. A bit unfair I think, though it may depend on whether you believe tutoring makes a difference. And then whether you feel that access to and knowledge of tutoring is evenly disbursed across different communities.

(And why, if tutoring does not make a difference, as some children expected to do so much. Especially bright children who are Grammar candidates as opposed to those who might be struggling with key skills. Their childhood could be so better spent broading their knowledge and experience by things like playing and reading. And then if they really have selected the best, why don't Grammar school seriously outperform those private schools which are often used as backup.)

A real life example. I had an West Indian colleague whose son was clever and doing very well at school. So no need to tutor. She put him in for the exam at the local (as it turns out super-selective) Grammar school. He was two marks short. It was only after mentioning this to a couple of colleagues that she realised her poor son was up against kids who had been sitting round that kitchen table for years. She had no idea. My recollection was that when my DC tried, Grammar schools went out of their way to emphasise that tutoring was not necessary.

And I also disagree with "the kids who did go to the Walshes all got in". Perhaps better rephrased as the parents of the kids who got in raved about the Walshes. The rest kept quiet, unless at a coffee morning with other Y7 parents at a Plan B school when they rant. The thing about tutoring is that you only know what other parents choose to tell. Until you get a different version via your child and theirs.

Never been to the Walsh duo. Was just speaking of tutors generally. But looking back the kids who did go to the Walshes all got in.

I think the comment about the ethic make up of Tiffin is a bit off.

Yes amidawish that is where the Tiffin tutor negativity comes from - and being able to get through the previous style exams therefore with years of practice despite perhaps not being of a high ability level. Hopefully that has changed now!

I didn't want DS to go to Tiffin, we used it as a back up and it served it's purpose. Many reasons, but the ethnic balance and the lack of success for sports teams (yes a sad reason I know but when looking at schools DS would always look at their sports results!), sports grounds not on site etc. etc.

Having said all that, as a state option for us it was been the best one.

Plus tutoring surely affects who gets a place and who does not. Otherwise people would not pay.

If Grammar schools are supposed to be for the most able, tutoring will be throwing in a bias and will mean that some children who should otherwise have gone won't get their place. Unfortunately those children may well be from less well off families who could not afford the tutoring, or are not as aware of the need for tutoring or know how to access good tutors. Leaving Tiffin with a different income and ethnic profile compared with other nearby schools.

Amida my knowledge of the Tiffin process comes partly from parents whose DC, despite all that sitting round the table, failed to get places and who were sending their children to the back up private school. There was some discussion of what the W mother and daughter must have earned over the years. I assume that a similar discussion between Tiffin parents about the same tutor would have had a different feel.

i think the negativity towards Tiffin tutoring is the racket surrounding it in previous years

• put your name down with "the Tiffin tutors" age 4
• then age 9 they assess your child and only select those who are probably going to get in anyway
• then groups of 6+ around a table paying £35 for 45 minutes each (that is some hourly rate!) doing paper after paper after paper of VR/NVR which was all about practice and speed at the Tiffin level of entry.

that is pretty scandalous!

thankfully with the change in exam that kind of tutoring will come to an end.

There is a lot of negativity around tutoring. I don't understand this. A good work ethic is something to be admired.

My DS1 was tutored. At first it was because I thought school wasn't really feeding his thirst for knowledge, and then it was specifically for Tiffin.

He We worked hard. I am not ashamed of this. He is going to Tiffin in September and I am very proud of him. We went on a journey and we achieved our goal.

I can't imagine not wanting to go to Tiffin.

OP, accept that place and come to Tiffin with us. It's going to be wonderful!

No prob. It's interesting (well to me anyway) that when you see stats about 'unqualified teachers' this includes trainees working in schools like Tiffin. People often worry about these % but trainees (if properly supported) can be a big asset to a school and help them develop a future pipeline of teachers.

Tiffin is doing a good thing by supporting trainees in this way!

Ah thank you Sandy I didn't know that - I've only come across it being offered by independent schools before, and I presumed it was just that they had more flexibility rather than a specific scheme.

Sorry for de-railing OP!

Schools - both academies and LA run - can take on teacher trainees via the School Direct route. These are graduates who undertake their training primarily in school. Tiffin is part of a grouping of schools (Kingston School Direct Alliance) who work together to train teachers and the group includes both academies and LA run schools.

I believe it became an academy in the last couple of years.

£18k is just the base price too remember
it goes up every year
plus lunches
plus extras (trips, workshops etc..)

well done to your ds.

Is Tiffin an academy then? I only ask because I know they're recruiting for at least one position from final year university students, which I didn't think state schools could do.

Pop I meant that the parents do not value those other areas of interest and indeed tend to steer their DCs towards STEM subjects even within the academic focus (though that is a trend at all schools it is more marked at Tiffin). Last year I understand there was just one pupil studying for each of art and music at A level (though it maybe that pupils who were seriously wanting to study those subjects went elsewhere for sixth form) . My experience of local schools stems from coming out the other side. No doubt we both have valid perspectives.

Taking into account that Tiffin is free, the money you saved, can be spent hiring best possible coaches for extra -curriculum outside school. Though my DC attends highly sought after very selective school, we came to the conclusion that extra -curriculum club at this school cant provide the quality external provider can deliver. You are also in the position to choose the external provider among many, as the school club teacher you cant change.

Its also beneficial from the social point of view to go outside the school occasionally especially if its a single sex school your children attend

@itsneverlate some parts could do with a lick of paint and the dining area is a prefab temporary building but it is being demolished to make way for a new one at a cost of £3m.
@whatwouldrondo I would read OP's original post.He/she wanted an idea of what the school was like and I think I answered the question.For the record my son has no tutor and the matter has never been discussed with other parents and although I am not naive to believe it is not happening, I don't think the tutor culture plays a major role.Also I am bit confused on how you make out Tiffin miss out on other "talents and opportunities" as there are many outside interests and clubs and these attributes are not the sole preserve of private schools.

Pop2 I do not think highlighting the tutor culture is at all irrelevant. I assume you are not yet in Years 10 to 13? The families I know with DCs who have gone through Tiffin after intensive tutoring to get in have also involved external help at every crucial stage in their school career. Additional tutoring at GCSE and A level and even the use of "Consultants" to help with the writing of the personal statement for university applications, especially med school applications. At the indies it is made very clear that parents should keep their noses out of the process and a PS blatantly not written by a 17 year old and reflecting their personalities is counter productive. The details of tutors and consultants are well known in the parent community networks and parents who have children in the private school networks are very about some of the misinformation about what is required for exam and university application success that is allowed to take hold in the Tiffin community. Aside from anything else it is making those the be all and end all instead of valuing all the talents and opportunities in other areas that help our DCs develop their interests, personalities and identities. If your DC is going to be oblivious / thrive in that atmosphere then it is the right school but don't discount that culture as irrelevant.

Now you come to mention it I have heard the same thing about the percentage of Asians at Tiffin Girls too. Someone mentioned that to me when I was talking about schools when DD was in Year 5. I wouldn't have applied anyway because I wanted co-ed and only co-ed.

I don't think any school should have a significant percentage of anything.

I hear good things about Tiffins and I hear bad things. The recent change in entrance exam style should mean a different entrance cohort. I know many people who dislike it due to the significant % of Asians. The sports activities can be good but they often come second to their independent peers in sports like cricket as they don't have the facilities nor the coaching. You don't want to go to Tiffins if you want to be a winner at sports.
Then again I wouldn't pay for KGS compared with Tiffins being across the road. And both have sports fields at a distance rather than onsite which is a pain for games etc.

Pop2, very useful inside information. Could you please clarify what you mean by " a bit rough around the edges "

Disclaimer:Tiffin parent
OP-Firstly don't worry about coming from w/l as the headmistress said a few years back if they chose the next 150 in the cohort the GCSE results would be the same.The biggest difference between KGS and Tiffin is co-ed which is an important factor for some.I can not pretend but they really stretch the boys,some may not like this but they are very talented individuals who need stretching.A few posters seem to have criticised tutoring(now irrelevant) and foster a image of hothousing but this not the case as there is a lot of extracurricular activities and they involve everybody in music which is fantastic by the way.For those interested in oxbridge they get about 20 in each year whilst KGS is about 6.Another point is that there is strong sibling connections as many have older brothers at Tiffin and even sisters at TGS,I would say about a dozen in his class.Having a look at the parent list there seem to be about 40 doctors and a few academics.OP-my ds had offers from both Tiffin and KGS and I do not regret our decision but we also feel that KGS would have been a fine choice.Bottom line-Tiffin is good but a bit rough around the edges but teaching and co-cirricular is good.