Tiffins school, Kingston

We many time choose to mix with people who work hard rather than pure/white English who doesnt appreciate of hard work

I showed Greenleave's comment above to several people and they all said racist and as one person said imagine if you had put the word black in there instead of white!!

I should add that there have been real advantages in DC being exposed to highly motivated and hard working peers. At least some of the work ethic has rubbed off on them.

That said it is worth thinking about the priority you want teenagers to give to academics.

What annoyed me was the assumption of 40pct children who English is a second language?

Not an assumption it's just true that's all. And no assumptions made about them.

Dont get me wrong Needmoresleep, my exboss who is pure white English is my model, his work ethics, knowledge is something I have never seen in anyone toward many years in banking. He is a MD and I have learnt so much from him.
I have no problem what race, what's belief( we don't have any belief and my daughter school has 90pct are white).
we choose fee-paying mainly because my daughter loves drawing/arts and love music and quite sporty. We think she will be more supported at private.
As I said, I know it now it's a long race. Even get to top univ( and not only UK top) there are still much more to come, it's only a START.
What annoyed me was the assumption of 40pct children who English is a second language? And that put everything else. Bilingual children were thought doing less well in English, I assumed so too whenb I saw my daughter writing on school board in year 1 as an example of a good writing and became a free reader at very early age and never have less than 100 pct then it's not the case. All my native friends children are doing extremely well in their English too.
I am not qualified for secondary yet as we still have 3 years to get there. I might change my opinion as I have, reading comments implying of more pct children are non native really put me off especially from parents who send their children to private. ( and I thought private is better social mix?)

Greenleave, what you say is familiar.

I think DD was 12 when she came home as complained that another girl (again with a banker mum) was "racist towards the English". Slightly earlier she had complained that everyone else came from "somewhere", whilst she did not, as if being native was a negative. She had more of it at an extra-curricular where English-identifying kids were in a minority. Part of the problem was that we were content to let the school do the work, and so, as long as there were no complaints from teachers, not get involved in supervising homework etc. Essentially our "attitude" was different to many of her peers. It was quite obvious that her peers, and their parents, considered her less bright (she was at a "less academic" school than many of them) and quite probably "not appreciative of hard work".

Its worked out fine. SS has proved a bit of a tortoise, and at the end of her schooling has clearly caught up with these peers or even overtaken them. The one pity perhaps is that she has only started to shine in maths in the last couple of years. At GCSE level the kids with maths "homework clubs" did better. Her teacher now says it is a real shame she has not taken double maths, and I think she agrees. But till maths got harder and others started to struggle despite hard work and external help, she did not know she was any good.

DD came about 800th on the Tiffin wait list. (No tutoring, just some VR and non VR practice a couple of months before the test.) Her A level performance will be better than the Tiffin average. However she was lucky she could go to a good school, in our case fee-paying. (The state alternative she was offered was worryingly poor, and you don't seem to be able to get into our nearest state school unless you are a Cameron or a Gove.)

Looking back and knowing what we know, if we had had been offered a place, would we choose Tiffin? Its difficult. There would be parents like Greenleave who believe that the "English" (and I agree she is probably talking about culture not colour) are essentially lazy, and these attitudes will rub off on their children. I would also worry that DD would be outshone, not because she was not bright enough, nor because she did not work hard enough, but because her peers were working so much harder. I would have wanted more balance in her life.

I suspect that I might have followed the example of affluent friends, who sent their boys to a super-selective grammar, but not their very bright daughter, who went to a private school on a major scholarship. I don't know about Tiffin, but have worked with pupils from another all-girls South London school, where one concern from "pure/white English" pupils was that their Asian friends were not allowed to mix with them outside school. Presumably again because of concern about "attitude".

I suppose the main thing I would is for my daughter to emerge from her childhood knowing she is "good enough" regardless of her colour or cultural background. Would Tiffin deliver this? I don't know. Would KGS deliver this? I think so. The girls DD has met from there have been lovely, well rounded and straight-forward. And importantly DD has no idea how clever any of them are. KGS gets good results for its selectivity, especially given Tiffin will have creamed off the top of the cohort, yet seems to allow kids to find their natural level.

I didn't say it was a bad thing I merely said it wasn't reflective and therefore not a diverse cohort as has also been pointed out elsewhere!

It's a race toward attitude, don't try to bend others words while you highlighted the 40 pct of children who is bilingual as it was a bad thing

We many time choose to mix with people who work hard rather than pure/white English who doesnt appreciate of hard work

This is racist.

The only implication re the 70% or 40% stats is that means that the school is not reflective of society as has been mentioned by someone else previously - why is that? I am saying that it's not well diversified. What's the FSM % compared with the average?

Ok I get it that some people are not interested in the sports and their 'perennial loser' teams, but some are (whether that is a good or bad view is another matter!).

I would never say a school was 'great' if I hadn't experienced it fully and to be dismissive of the opposite view is bizarre. I think DS1's school was great (for him) and we shall see if DS2's school is great (for him) after a few years.

No, no other name here, but good to hear that someone else can see through the spin!

The KGS and Hampton uniforms have a different badge by the way, and a different colour tie, but I guess that's not obvious for some!

@SAHD -you do not need to have a child at the school to have an opinion.You can make enquiries,ask other parents,use this forum and attend open days to form views.Indeed,this is what most parents have to do.Your dismissal of Strix's view was rude in my opinion.

I really like the stripy blazer and wish DS will wear it one day. (we are speaking another language at home and so he must stand a good chance). It is very recognisable in Kingston and indicates clever" rather than "silly". People in Kingston would not tell the difference between Hampton and KGS uniform, for example. Those who has the dilemma of Tiffin or private should choose private and free places for those, who has not that "hard" choice. BTW, DD is at TGS and very happy.
SAHD, dId you have another name here? Your attacks on Tiffin ring the bell...

Whats the implication of 40% minority with English is a second langue SAHD?
I agree my English is terrible even I have been living and working in uk for more than 10yrs, my boss who is a French, his English is terrible too even he is a global head of a department in an uk bank.
However my daughter's English(never has less than 100% in spellinf), writing, comprehension has been top of the class. Many of my friends' children who are billingual are top in the class in English too. And I could tell you she has never had a tutor and surely we cant teach her with our English either. Do not judge or weight down the disadvantage (or an advantage) of a well diversified school. We many time choose to mix with people who work hard rather than pure/white English who doesnt appreciate of hard work

SAHD, your only valid point is the silly stripey blazer. But, in choosing a school, I must admit the uniform was not among the criteria I considered.

Where's the proof that top sets at Coombe Girls and Grey Court achieve similar results to Tiffin? I had to look at the 2014 results (updated Nov 2015) as the Dept. for Education have made their new performance tables incomprehensible but the average GCSE grade for high achievers at Grey Court is B+, for Coombe Girls A- and Tiffin Boys A+. Can you score higher than A+? Surely the fact that Tiffin scrapes the top 20 state schools in the country for both GCSEs and A levels must recommend it.
I don't see how you can compare Tiffin (state boys' school) with LEH (private girls' school, fees £19,000 pa) for a meaningful comparison. Perhaps we should compare in a few years time when the new linear exams are standard?

Why are you assuming that Tiffin is a great school? You haven't even experienced it yet as you say previously that your DS starts in Sep?!

So far it's been shown that it takes a pretty high level of candidate, then lets them down by failing to achieve results much better than others that you would expect them to beat, and fails on the sports front as it doesn't have the facilities or the level of coaching (to quote a Tiffin coach directly recently). It fails to reflect the make-up of society by admitting 70% from one background and 40% who have English as a second language. (And it has the silly stripey blazer that DS said he would never wear .)

So I'm struggling to see how well Emperor Tiffin's new clothes fit?

Tiffin is a great school. To suggest otherwise (as a few comments on here have) is just plain silly. But it's not the only great school in the neighbourhood. However, it is the only one that's free.

The entrance test is a two stage maths and English test. The scores are ranked based solely on stage two. So VR and NVR count for very little.

Great length and informative posts! Has the school changed the entrance admission to Maths and English? If so I dont think anyone who could ever benefit less from tutoring in Maths and English if its needed. If its not for the entrance exam then surely it will only do them good in Secondary having great foundation for mathsand English.
A year ago I used to think Tiffin for girl(I have girls) is the only good school that we must get in in the area. Now learning about Private then there is another option for people who could afford it to have good education in the South west London too. We are actually spoiled with choices for great private!
Then after few months on mumsnet I learnt one more thing, getting a place at a good secondary school is only a START, its another 7 years harder game! Nice!

Pop I am sure they are all capable of getting into independents, the ability range at the private schools should be wider. Tiffin has 2000 applicants, even KGS which is one of the more popular has only 700 in comparison. Schools like LEH and Hampton have even fewer with 400 or so (though probably self selected if not on ability then gender!) . And this area is served by a range of private schools. Parents may panic at 11 but the brightest do get into all the schools and even those not able to get into the most selective private schools will get into schools like Surbiton High that still have very good academic results.

The point is that Tiffin as a state grammar is supposed to select the very brightest on ability regardless of background, that is their role in society and the basis on which they are funded. That is why traditionally the 11+ was always a reasoning test, intelligence test in old money. I don't know the cut off now, it is doubtless higher, but in theory not so long ago it was supposed to be taking those who scored above the 97th percentile i.e in the top 3% of the population. When I went to a very selective grammar nobody was tutored for these tests and I am quite sure the cohort was the very brightest and above all it reflected the social and ethnic mix of the local community (which did have a large immigrant community -and not necessarily with British passports -I though that was an odd comment, not a few of my DDs' peers at a private school did not have British passports but given that Tiffin require the pupils to sit the exam on one day in Kingston whilst the independents allow pupils to sit them in their own schools overseas it isn't really surprising). The academic results were a match for the best private schools in the country. As I have posted before it enabled many friends from disadvantaged backgrounds to go on to achieve great things - two BBC correspondents for instance.

However I have read defenders of the need for intensive tutoring on here boast that over a period of years they improved their son's score from the 90th to the 97th percentile to get them into Tiffin. LEH for instance look for reasoning scores above the 95th percentile (on untutorable tests). If Tiffin were truly recruiting from the top 3% of the population they should be outperforming the likes of LEH academically by quite a margin, and they don't. Indeed they barely outperform the top sets /high attainers at Coombe and Greycourt. I don't think that is particularly down to the teaching, I am sure it is excellent but even uninspiring teaching will enable the brightest and motivated even if it is by pushy parents to get good results. I am quite sure, in fact know, that as a result of the testing regime that amongst the bright boys who genuinely score above the 97th percentile (and would without any tutoring ) there were boys who only managed to score that highly because of intensive (to the point of what I would frankly regard as bordering on child abuse) tutoring. I think it is morally unacceptable. It also means some of those less able have had to continue with tutoring to keep up and coming from families who are prepared to go to those lengths to get their child in it does affect the culture of the cohort. OP was choosing between KGS and Tiffin. In contrast the USP of KGS in a crowded private school market is that along with the usual theatre, sports facilities etc it has a friendly relaxed encouraging environment for a cohort with relatively mixed ability, compared to the likes of KCS and Hampton. Some parents chose it over Hampton /LEH as a result. Whether that is right for OPs child and /or worth the extra money was of course a decision for OP.

@whatwouldrondo -reading your post ,I seem to think that you consider the entrance exam for Tiffin in years gone by as somewhat limited,heavily dependent on tutoring whereas the independents selection process was more rounded.I hope this is a fair summation and to a certain extent you make some good points however in my opinion you somewhat underestimate the calibre of these boys.I will focus on my son's class.As I mentioned before my son was awarded a place at KGS he had to pass English,Maths and reasoning plus interview via 10+,I think he was among 20 from 230 applicants.Some of his class I have come from prep schools including KCJS.Obviously we turned down KGS but others in his class turned down KCS and Hampton.I would say about 5 boys got the full house of Tiffin and all the Sutton Grammars.We know some even turned down scholarships mainly due to the reward being too low.There are some boys due to their circumstances Tiffin was their only preferred and viable option.Even those who admitted they came form the waiting list show great ability.Hand on my heart I would say my son is of average ability in this cohort and we accept this as he is doing his best.My point being and I am being genuine here is that every boy in his class,on his day, would also pass the independent entrance exams and do well at those schools.

The new Head of KGS (if it was KGS) was formerly Head of a state Grammar so maybe he is particularly focused on "compare and contrast" as he has moved between the different environments, though I don't think that Grammar School was the subject of quite such a fevered selection process / tutoring culture.

So Tiffin takes the 'brightest' yet still doesn't get better results than all other schools locally... so it's a relatively poor standard of education if it fails people in that way? So relatively poor facilities, poor teaching (you have established)... maybe paying for it is the best way??

Anecdotally I know 5 boys who turned down Tiffin in favour of other schools last year, so therefore they haven't taken the 'brightest' have they, as the 5 that replaced them were at the bottom of the entry list and 3 of those replaced that I know were towards the top end. And my population sample is relatively small!

Yes, local grammar was Tiffin. and i was surprised myself that the point was raised at the open day.

Oh well that proves it then. Clearly they are loosing (sic) the brightest to Tiffin

Was Tiffin the 'local grammar'. I assume not. There is such competition for places at any well regarded secondary school in SW London that I doubt schools give it too much thought.

Elsewhere this may be an issue. But the discussion is about Tiffin and KGS.

At the open day the headmaster of one of the highly regarded private schools spent some time explaning the parents why the local grammar is not as good as this school. Clearly they are loosing the brightest to Tiffin otherwise why would they bother to spend time on talking about it.