IBac and Alevels

Hayita, I didn't say Dutch students can be rejected on basis of their grades, I was talking about UK students going to the Netherlands and other EU countries.

I wouldn't be worried about PhD in France after going to Uni. That wouldn't be an issue.

It really is an issue for STEM subjects such as maths and physics - very difficult to get funding if you are not from a grande ecole because the perception is that you must automatically be worse.

I agree this is not directly related to the IB versus A level question of the OP, except if people are thinking about IB in the context of studying abroad.

In the Netherlands they cannot reject home (Dutch) students on the basis of school leaving grades and the failure rate amongst Dutch students is also high. (My colleagues in Holland often complain about this.) The only real limitation on university student numbers is the number of pupils attending grammars and hence taking the VWO diploma required for university entrance. The only programmes which are allowed to insist on specific levels of grades are university colleges and nowadays medicine etc.

I think the main reason why Dutch numbers in Belgium are rising is financial. In the past Dutch students went to Belgium for subjects such as veterinary medicine, medicine, because Holland operated a lottery system instead of selecting by merit.

I don't think this is entirely true: UK employers do distinguish between different UK universities when hiring graduates (for at least some jobs). They indeed don't know how to rank degrees from many other EU universities but this generally doesn't work in the favour of those with degrees from such universities. For jobs where it is not sufficient to have just any degree, employers will want to know how the degree compares to UK universities and will often just reject candidates from places they don't recognise.

Also if a student wants to stay in France after their degree they will find themselves shut out of many top jobs through not having gone to a grande ecole. Students graduating from French universities may well also find themselves unable to get into better regarded masters/PhD programmes (in France and elsewhere).

Exactly Hayita, no-one can be rejected in Belgium if they've passed the secondary certificate, except for a few courses like medicine where numbers are limited, but they can and are entitled to do other courses, whereas in the Netherlands they can reject and be more picky on the basis of grades. That is why Belgium has a success rate of something like 40% after first year, similar to French universities, not sure which country has the lower pass rate, but I know Belgium is far cheaper to go to university than in France, which is why recently there has been a large influx of French students, doubt many go the other way. The percentage of Dutch in Belgian universities is also on the rise. Grandes Ecoles of course very different.

Whereas next door in the Netherlands, they are more picky about who starts first year university.

Not true. Any Dutch student who has the appropriate VWO can start university; it is not allowed to select on the basis of grades for most courses. Foreign students can be selected on the basis of grades, but the grade requirements are pretty low.

BTW in France there is of course the huge distinction between universities and grandes ecoles. UK students would find it very hard to get into the latter, but only the second tier French students go to university rather than going through the prepa and ecoles route, so French universities would be a poor choice for bright UK students.

The reality is that A levels and IB are accepted all over the world and the belief a university will favour one over the other is going to come down to individual countries and individual universities.

I live outside the UK, where I live, anyone who finishes secondary education anywhere in the EU or even further afield (with equivalencies verified) can go to university here, only a few courses such as medicine have further tests to pass to start. It's very naive for anyone to choose IB or A level thinking that it will be an advantage. It's far wiser to choose on an individual students breadth of potential, if they are in a situation of being able to choose between the 2 qualifications. It seems pondering over the choice for more than 10 minutes is overthinking this.

From observation, central London parents who expect their children to go abroad for their tertiary education are attracted to schools that offer IB, as IB is seen as a better fit with more broad based European and American degrees. I don't think IB in itself encourages children to study abroad.

Again from observation but IB can be tough for less academic DC, who might be better off selecting A levels that play to their strengths.

In my experience though more pupils who have studied IB go to university abroad than those who have studied A levels.

Do you think that might just be because the IB is overwhelmingly (a) private education and (b) international schools?

I never said that A levels aren't accepted in other countries that was another poster. In my experience though more pupils who have studied IB go to university abroad than those who have studied A levels.

I teach IB Maths Higher Level, and it is far more demanding than A' Level maths
There was a previous thread discussing this. From what I remember the conclusion was that only a small percentage get maximum points in IB higher maths level and therefore by that measure it is 'harder' than doing both maths and further maths A level. However doing the two A levels covers more maths content including advanced topics so that rather than IB higher maths is better preparation for maths based STEM subjects.

IB generally seems rather prescriptive in how it fills a student's timetable with less time for students who want to explore and read around their subjects (with the exception of the extended essay.)

I think the other advantage of A levels is that they can be slanted towards subjects you are good at. Therefore if you wish to do History, English and Politics, you can. You do not have to worry about a science or maths if they are not strengths. Likewise people who do languages are less likely to do the IB because you may do French, Spanish and History A levels and that is more than sufficient to get a student into a top university. Sometimes finding time for music, drama and a bit of fun is a good idea.

I also think well organised intelligent students can adjust to university life and, as the vast majority of British students have A levels, I think if you asked a cohort of academic students with A levels if they managed the workload at university, they would also say they did. People always support their own choices and become evangical about it if they are a minority. However, the IB is not a good choice for all.

The other advantage of the IB is that if your dcs would like to go to university outside the UK, it is accepted in other countries.

Whereas A Levels aren't? Seriously? Could you point to one university which accepts the IB but doesn't accept A Levels?

There are tons of A level graduates at universities that I know of personally in Ireland, Netherlands, Belgium, Germany. I don't see A levels as a disadvantage for applying outside the UK, as it's quite a well known qualification.

There is no way of any university designating my son as a native speaker and none were particularly bothered about him doing French A level. It's all in his personal statement apparently (which I've never even seen).

The other advantage of the IB is that if your dcs would like to go to university outside the UK, it is accepted in other countries. That includes the EU (would have to be English speaking course unless your dc is bilingual) and also other countries too. One of my former pupils ended up at University in Australia!
lifeisunjust Some unis don't count a MFL A level if you are a native speaker as these qualifications are designed for pupils taking the subject as a second language.

Very few universities make offers to A-level candidates on UCAS points - certainly none of the top ones do - they all specify particular grades for particular subjects. And with the IB even though most offers will give a total number of points, applicants will be told they need to get three 6s at higher level for example

I must admit, my son is cheating so slightly, he's doing A level French and he's a French speaker, it was hard to not add it on but wasn't on his original 4AS/3A2 choices, it's purely for UCAS points so he's less stressed with achieving in his real A levels. I tried to get the school to drop the GS but didn't win that one, so he does 5. Definitely not recommended to do 5 A levels, but it sure fills the timetable.

It's very much every country has a different take on university entry in the rest of the EU. In France and Belgium for example, if you turned up with A levels, the grades would be irrelevant except for medicine and engineering and the like, whereas next door in the Netherlands, they are more picky about who starts first year university. Each EU country has theoretically an equivalence system for those travelling across boarders and applying for university and jobs, where they register their EU qualifications and you get an "equivalence certificate". IB of course is going to be more familiar and qualification for recruiters than A levels, but again depends on how many schools in each EU country now uses IB.

For my children educated and previously educated in a country where Maths, Science, 2 national languages, religious studies, all these subjects are obligatory to age 18, plus where children do huge numbers of hours of homework if in academic streams of secondaries, IB would be easier for most than A levels, were either of these qualifications to be introduced into schools, simply down to the breadth of current curriculum and work levels. Not really the case in the UK, where children drop subjects age 14 and then age 16, A levels is a natural progression and IB is less natural for many.

I'd hope if there is the possibility of either at the same school, that the teachers could indicate the best of the 2 systems to follow age 16.

I wonder if UK universities made their offers on more than the usual 3 A level subjects only and not on total UCAS points, that more students would opt to take 4 A levels as standard rather than 3?

Catslife mean 3 at Higher level, 3 at standard hence why they can take 2 sciences and maths.
IB does work for medicine though as about 20 a year go from DS's school, it is not so good if you want to do Economics or something similar as for some Unis the requirement will be for maths only at A level ( not further maths) but IB Higher level maths at a grade 7 which is incredibly difficult to get, so A levels will be a much better route.

Why 5 A levels Lifeisunjust? I get that one is GS, but is one of the others Further Maths?

Very few pupils take 5 A2 levels though and it is going to be much less likely once all the A level subjects are the new reformed qualifications.
Most subjects are divided into 2 different levels Higher and Standard and pupils need to take 2 subjects at Higher level. The Higher level subjects are covered in more depth. For Maths there are 3 levels Higher, Standard and Maths Studies but the final option wouldn't be suitable for STEM degree subjects.
The other argument for IB being less suitable for STEM degrees was that pupils can only take 2 Science subjects and Maths whereas under the 4 AS level system many pupils could take all 3 Sciences and Maths at AS level. However some schools are now restricting pupils to 3 subjects in Y12 so this disadvantage isn't going to be as significant.

My son is doing 5 A2 levels and did 6 AS levels. I'm sure he'll also be well prepared for the lesser hours at university! Mind you one is general studies. I guess if you can take on 5 A levels, it's going to be similar in time to IB.