3 A Levels or 4?

You get nothing for a Duke of Edinburgh"s Gold award with regard to extra points and you never have done.

I'm sure you're right (I've never checked)... but if so it's amazing how many students include DoE under their qualification list with A levels, music/drama etc. Either they think it gives tariff points or (more likely) they think admissions tutors will be interested in it.

Not that my DC are in the bracket of young people needing support, they're lucky to be at a very good school. All I mean is that surely normal parents don't read these stats and analyse them in the way roguedad has done?

Hayita tariff points do include music and drama but NOT D of E. You get nothing for a Duke of Edinburgh"s Gold award with regard to extra points and you never have done.

I've certainly never read them or had the remotest inclination to do so Carl. Isn't roguedad quite a loner on this one?

I have had contact with lots and lots of young people as part of the widening participation drive, and I have never heard anyone use a misreading if those stats as a reason not to apply.

And I've heard it all , trust me .

but kids without naice MC parents and heads will look at those published numbers and not even try.

I don't want to depress you, but I'm afraid you are wrong for honourable reasons. The parents and schools you are quite properly worrying about dismiss selective universities out of hand, not through a misguided reading of admission statistics. If only it was as easy as making admission statistics clearer.

"Not for the likes of us" (or, worse, schools doing "not for the likes of you") dies horribly hard. A guy who used to work for me left school at sixteen, as did his wife, but is the classic case of someone who today would have been a shining star. He has two children currently doing PhDs at top places (having got glittering firsts from good departments) and a third in his second year at Oxford. Both his family and the children's school - a bog standard comp - continuously expressed s bafflement as to why they were not at, the local post-92.

"DD1's school offers 4 to the top of the top set, not to everyone."

Same at DD's school.

Absolutely,
but kids without naice MC parents and heads will look at those published numbers and not even try.
so then the top unis get hammered for not widening access
and the schools without the expertise to see through the charade get hammered for not sending kids to top unis

it comes back to my point of the fact that decent careers advice should be funded in all schools

They only report the overall tariff to HESA.

And some universities make more of an effort than others to collect all the stuff that isn't on the UCAS form. One of my children has picked up 145 UCAS points (ie, more than an A*) in the past six weeks, stuff which has never been mentioned on a UCAS form in any way (two Grade VIIIs for someone not doing anything related to music). I guess some universities have a way to find this out, others don't.

To include that is just another way to make the "top" Unis more exclusive
in that they exclude kids who might thrive academically
even if they do not arrive with the right stuff

But top universities do not include extracurriculars in their offers and they do not use them in their selection procedures. They only report the overall tariff to HESA.

boy3
sorry, I was typing too fast. The course I looked up has average entry requirements between 633 and 478 for the top 7 courses
that is the average
so if by fluke there is a non MC kid without music and dance and drama
then there are kids with stack loads of EC stuff
which just distorts the true entry requirements

DD's ability to go on pointe and play a chromatic has diddly squat to do with her ability in the chosen subject.
To include that is just another way to make the "top" Unis more exclusive
in that they exclude kids who might thrive academically
even if they do not arrive with the right stuff

If league tables only included best 3 A2s (or Scottish Highers/IB/BTEC), it would make comparisons much less obscure.

Right now universities which take lots of middle class kids who have extra UCAS points from extracurriculars get an immediate bonus in league tables over universities which take more kids with similar A2s but fewer extracurriculars. This bonus in points is worth quite a bit for universities like Durham, Bristol etc.

TP which course has an average entry tariff of over 700?

Skimming thru' the main STEM subjects, which tend to have a higher average score than for humanities, can't find anything higher than 662, which tbh is not difficult to get too, or at least to explain fairly easily. Points for an AS not taken to A2, an EPQ, and a 4th A2 subject (in DS1's case this was General Studies, hardly anyone includes that in their offers but an A still counts as 140 pts), high grades in all those, alongside A A* A (400 pts) in the other 3 A2s, can easily take a DC past the 650 mark.

To be fair to CUG the tariff points they quote are identical to those in the Guardian and Sunday Times tables. Presumably because they all use the same HESA source.

Bit harsh to shoot the messenger. Although as the CUG explanation could be more comprehensive in stating what is included maybe a bit of harshness is justified :)

I start to lose belief in it when there is a course where the average entry tariff is stated as being higher than 5 x A at A2.*

Of course it isn't stated this way: it is stated as points, and as you point out later the tariff points do include AS which weren't taken to A2 as well as DoE, music, drama etc.

But roguedad nonetheless has a partially valid point: even if you subtracted the DoE, music, drama, etc I would bet you that maths/physics/engineering at the top few universities would correspond to an average of at least 4 A levels at very high grades. I.e. while the published offer for e.g. maths at Cambridge is two A stars and one A (with STEP) the average is four with mostly A stars.

CUG list average points for Cambridge maths as 633. I think that typically 520+ of this comes from A2.

The UCAS point score shown on their tables is the total number of points the kids can prove.

Indeed.

If you have an A in an AS that wasn't taken forward, an A* in an EPQ, an A in an FSMQ, a couple of Grade VIII instruments at Merit or Distinction then you are a middle-class child then you have the equivalent of a couple of extra A or better A2s. Some universities collect this information more assiduously than others.

I've just done a bit of digging about the methodology of the Complete Universities guide and its become much clearer and thus much more misleading.

The UCAS point score shown on their tables is the total number of points the kids can prove.
So a grade 8 music with distinction , a grade 6 dance with merit, a spare AS or two and magically the numbers are sky high
when in fact the bulk of the students have the standard 3 or possibly 4 A levels
but are all rounders .

roguedad
I just has a look at the Complete Universities guide.
I start to lose belief in it when there is a course where the average entry tariff is stated as being higher than 5 x A* at A2

hayita
And if her school were consistently that far off in predicting grades for many students then they should be failed by Ofsted.
One grade per subject is well within the stats

How would they be ranked by university admissions?

In your scenario the most relevant point is that the first student exceeded her predictions by one grade in every subject. Her achieved grades would get her into many top ten courses but her predicted grades wouldn't. Regardless of what kind of school she came from, somebody in such a scenario would be better off re-applying the next year as most top courses would not have places during adjustment.

And if her school were consistently that far off in predicting grades for many students then they should be failed by Ofsted.

Three A levels are fine. No University will ask for more. However if you are aiming for a competitive University it is worth making sure that subjects are suitable and at least two are considered "facilitating subjects"

Both mine did, or are doing, five. There are advantages as well as the obvious disadvantages.

1. It shows you can carry a heavier work load, which may help on some courses.
2. It gives you options. DD was unsure whether she would get a medical school place - 60% of applicants don't). More subjects at A level gave her more options if she chose to do somethng else, specifically maths and physics opened the door to biomedical engineering.
3. It gives scope for a bad paper. DS did poorly in one subject but this did not matter as he got the grades elsewhere.
4. More subjects can help ensure you retain more skills, ie numberical, essay, linguistic, or practical.

Just an add.. Some Med schools provide transport for the students to their relevant placements. I work with UEA med students. They are all coached in to placement at hospitals. And to other smaller placements they are sent in taxis..
and talking to a lot of the students that come through.. They are not all rich kids.. Some are but the majority are not.

They also provide me with a lot of information on uni's for my 17 yr old son I quiz them all when they come through to me for placement!

Two hypothetical girls, one from Barnsley who went through a poor state secondary, one from the Home Counties who had been privately educated.

Barnsley Girl
GCSE: A*, A, A, A, B, B, B
A level prediction A, B, B
A level: A*, A, A

HC Girl
GCSE: 8 As, 3As
A level prediction A, A, A
A level: A, A, A

Both get the same grades in the same subjects at A level.

How would they be ranked by university admissions?

I have been called insane on another thread - sorry wrong - not giving out predicted grades was called insane - apologies to whoever it was.

roguedad lots and lots and lots of applicants are given offers having taken only three A2s, particularly in non sciences. Don't exhaust your DC unnecessarily!

roguedad isn't that all a bit complicated? My impression is that most schools are heading for three A2s (leaving aside further maths which is bound to be a not uncommon fourth) and that a good wodge are adding in the EPQ. That points stuff can be hugely misleading in any event with all manner of things contributing to the total. The competitive courses don't really seem to care about all those frills, simply about top grades in three A2s. I can't see why three good A2s won't be absolutely fine going forward - I'm not going to be pushing for my DC to do any more; three will work for anything I'd have thought.

I must admit that I have some concerns about the decoupling of AS and widening participation.

First, those students who are not being given the option to suck it and see, might well see lower grades than those allowed to try 4/5. So may young people find the step up to A level greater than they imagined, even (perhaps especially) when they did well at GCSE.

Second, schools only allowing three are offering far fewer contact hours generally. Money saved. Again this might well have an impact on final grades.