3 A Levels or 4?

I'm not sure why four A2s under the new more challenging system would now be seen as critical when they weren't under the old regime? .

What is your DS intending to apply for Indrid? Is the fourth subject especially useful ? Is he taking an AS in it or is it already decoupled with no Y12 exam and therefore nothing 'to show' for his work ?

Have been following this thread with interest as we are in the same position as OP, with DS keen to drop one of his 4 subjects.

May I ask, have you actually made a decision yet OP?

The university system is the same in Italy. Thousands enrol at the start - and it's a pyramid structure whereby people fall off each year. There is not a strict 3-year time span, people can take years to do a degree as you can keep retaking. Most young people live at home and attend their nearest university, so it is not as punitive as university here. In fact there was a case reported this week where a 28-year-old son successfully sued his father for continued support at university. The father said he'd had enough and the son should get a job. But the son won!

No Ricardian in my original post I was referring to the internationally recognised IB all along which is indeed studied in lots of countries around the world. My reference to plural qualifications is because this is offered through more than one UK exam board e.g. CIE, Edexcel. I was not referring to local qualifications in other EU countries. The other qualification that is broader based is Scottish Highers but this must be a slightly lower standard as it only requires one further year of post 16 study.
Due to uncertainty about the new A levels many UK schools are switching away from A levels towards the IB. There are also other qualifications such as international A levels (A level equivalent to iGCSE) which isn't available to state school pupils in the UK and the Cambridge pre-U.

Also, if they're that brilliantly qualified and well prepared why the heck do they fail? Is medicine in France much more complicated than here?

Quite.

Ricardian you cannot dismiss the whole IB system on the basis of one course at one university. Most UK universities (including Oxbridge) accept the IB taken by some schools in the UK

catslife: that list doesn't include the IB, and the IB is accepted by the institution I cited. You appear to be confusing the IB, a qualification developed by international schools within the UN and now spreading more widely, with national baccalaureates. They have in common, roughly, the word "baccalaureate".

To take the example of the French Baccalaureate, this is a qualification that is not sutable for admission to a significant number of French universities, never mind anywhere outside France. The whole business of the CPGE has arisen precisely for this reason.

However there is a real stampede of French students wanting to study in the UK, not just medicine but subjects like economics and engineering.

English qualification, plus not having to do the CPGE (vide supra). The French education system, like so many other French things, is held in higher esteem by ex-pats besotted by being able to buy decent croissants than it is by the French themselves.

Why wouldn't one of the 60% of UK students who fail to get into a UK medical school, then apply to a French medical school?

Goodbye, I am not an expert but I think the approach of allowing all qualified candidates in, then selecting via the first year exams, is not uncommon in Europe. In contrast British Universities select before entry and 60% of medical school applicants won't get places.

I guess it depends where you come from. Not selecting initially means that you don't suffer selection bias. However there is a real stampede of French students wanting to study in the UK, not just medicine but subjects like economics and engineering. I dont really know why, as most French will insist that their education is superior to ours. We live in central London so have known a number of London based French, but I cannot think of a single student, bar one medic who did not get a place in the UK, who has returned to France for tertiary education.

BTW it is not true that all UK medical schools refuse these qualifications either. I know that Cambridge has in recent years made offers for medicine to students with Dutch and other qualifications. They do however tend to ask for very high grades (arguably above the grades required for A level students).

*Largely to a lower standard (unsurprisingly, unless you believe that A Level students are dossing about and could squeeze a couple more in, no problem). Here's the wording from one medical school.

We require that qualifications are not broad-based and are obtained through assessment of performance in formal, national examinations. For guidance, the following qualifications are not acceptable on their own without, for example, A-levels. These include: Bulgarian Diploma; French Baccalaureate (including OIB); German Abitur; Greek (including Cypriot) Apolytirion; Italian Esame Di Stato; Lithuanian Brandos Atestats; Netherlands "Voorbereidend Wetenschappelijk Onderwijs" (VWO) Diploma; Polish Matura; Portugese Diploma de Ensino Secundario; Romanian Baccalaureate; Spanish Título de Graduado en Educación Secundaria Obligatoria (ESO) and Título de Bachiller; Swedish Slutbetyg från Gymnasieskolan (School Leaving Certificate).*

I think this is a bit misleading, as (a) the qualifications listed above are very different and not comparable to each other and (b) you have quoted one medical school while other subjects/universities do accept these qualifications.

For example, Dutch VWO teaches comparable maths and physics material to A level maths and physics; students don't study that many subjects at VWO and VWO is generally comparable with A level. In particular Dutch VWO in exact sciences (physical sciences) is accepted by UK universities as being comparable to A levels. Similarly the Greek/Cypriot Apolytirion is accepted in physical sciences - there are quite a few Greek students coming to study in the UK at the moment. On the other hand the list above includes qualifications which range over a wider group of subjects and which are hence not comparable to A level.

What a stupid system Needmoresleep. Has anyone given any thought to what a waste of a year that is for the 80% who fail? Also, if they're that brilliantly qualified and well prepared why the heck do they fail? Is medicine in France much more complicated than here?

llykk, the French system allows for anyone who gets the Bac to enter medical school. I don't know the exact figure, but maybe 80% fail the first year. The difference with the British system is that Universities don't normally take on undergraduates who they don't think will last the course. And because of our more specialisd school system courses are often shorter. Whatever, British medical schools, and indeed other subjects at British Universities, seem popular with EU citizens who will have access to the same loans as British students have.

Why aren't French medical schools offering enough spaces for all these brilliantly qualified & well-prepared French students? Is the French health system not busy brain-draining middle income countries, too?

Ricardian you cannot dismiss the whole IB system on the basis of one course at one university. Most UK universities (including Oxbridge) accept the IB taken by some schools in the UK (as well as many EU countries and worldwide) as an equivalent qualification to A levels for all courses including medicine.
How the IB manages breadth vs depth is that at least 2 subjects are studied at Higher level and the others at Standard level. The Standard level subjects are possibly slightly lower than A level standard but the higher ones definitely are not. However university offers can usually allow for this.

Ricardian, I certainly know one French mother who would claim that such wording is nothing to do with lower standards in French schools but a desire by British medical schools to put up barriers to entry to ensure they were not flooded by better educated candidates from Europe.

Where is Bobo Chic when you need her...I think she is also of the view that the French manage both breadth and depth.

Given that in other countries pupils study a greater number of subjects til the age of 18

Largely to a lower standard (unsurprisingly, unless you believe that A Level students are dossing about and could squeeze a couple more in, no problem). Here's the wording from one medical school.

We require that qualifications are not broad-based and are obtained through assessment of performance in formal, national examinations. For guidance, the following qualifications are not acceptable on their own without, for example, A-levels. These include: Bulgarian Diploma; French Baccalaureate (including OIB); German Abitur; Greek (including Cypriot) Apolytirion; Italian Esame Di Stato; Lithuanian Brandos Atestats; Netherlands "Voorbereidend Wetenschappelijk Onderwijs" (VWO) Diploma; Polish Matura; Portugese Diploma de Ensino Secundario; Romanian Baccalaureate; Spanish Título de Graduado en Educación Secundaria Obligatoria (ESO) and Título de Bachiller; Swedish Slutbetyg från Gymnasieskolan (School Leaving Certificate).

grinkle General studies is one of the A level subjects that isn't being reformed so is only an option for current Y11s. It isn't highly regarded (and never was) by "top" universities. Most colleges and sixth forms no longer offer this subject for this reason. Taking an EPQ would be more valuable than General Studies imo.
With the exception of Further Maths, where many schools do allow pupils to take 4 subjects in Y13 there is no extra value in taking 4 subjects at A level in terms of university entrance.
IMO there is some value in taking 4 subjects in Y12 as some subjects are very different to GCSEs and this gives students the option to drop one either during Y12 or at the end of the year. The added benefit to the student is it can broaden their subject choice e.g. allowing pupils to take Maths with subjects such as History or a language (or essay subject) alongside Sciences. Given that in other countries pupils study a greater number of subjects til the age of 18, reducing the number of subjects at A level seems a retrograde step imo. In the IB for example pupils have to take Maths, a science, an arts subject, a language and English with an additional subject from any subject group (so 6 subjects) yet this course can also be taken over 2 years in UK schools.

A cv of supporting extra-curricular activities can be helpful in swaying a decision between two candidates with the same exam results.

Not for university entrance: this would discriminate against those who haven't had access to extra-curriculars and moreover extra-curriculars have absolutely nothing to say about whether a student will succeed on e.g. a maths course.

Needmoresleep Agreed. I've taught Chinese students and they were astonishingly good at maths. And their English was a lot better than my Chinese!

OP - DS is doing History at university. He did 3 A levels (well actually Pre U but equivalent). It was fine for everything he applied for (with the exception of LSE which he was ( I think my son is a curious inversion of Needmore's ) rejected for. He took 3 straight humanities through to completion. He started Maths (his school does Maths gcse - well igcse - a year early so he did a year and a half term of maths as a fourth and then dropped it. He wasn't as Needmore says a "natural" - he was good and could have got a creditable score. Given it was so disparate from his other subjects and would have taken a good deal of effort better spent elsewhere he decided to drop it. I think it was a good and pragmatic decision. Don't think it did him any favours with LSE but that's speculation and maybe he just wasn't good enough for them.

In fact there are examples on MN of e.g. kids doing 5 AS and getting As/Bs where they might have gotten 4As if they had concentrated on only four.

Things that some people don't appear to realise, but private schools do:

(1) There is no such thing as "Grade B, but I did it a year early so it's like an A". It's a B.

(2) There is no such thing as "Grade B, but I did lots of other things and got Bs in them too, so it's like a smaller number of As". They're Bs.

One of the most insidious things about schools that are, in their hearts, inverted snobs is making wildly inappropriate claims about UCAS points for courses which are not recruited on UCAS points. For the RG, UCAS points are only of interest to HESA. If your offer asks for A*AA (400 points), turning up and claiming that your 4Bs or 5Cs are also 400 points won't get you very far.

Sorry grinkle that should have read one A* and two As across three subjects (and that may end up being revised downwards with the new exams).

However students capable gaining competitive places at top universities can often take four A levels without dropping grades.

Even if they could with the current A levels, it is far from clear that they will be able to do so with the new A levels. The proposed maths A level content is far, far harder than the current A level, for example.

Even now, it is not true that bright students doing STEM are always able to take 4 A2 subjects and maintain their grades. Many pupils don't get the same level of support as students at private schools do i.e. they may have to self-study and self-teach more, which is time consuming.

In fact there are examples on MN of e.g. kids doing 5 AS and getting As/Bs where they might have gotten 4As if they had concentrated on only four. As Ricardian says, better schools understand that top grades in the right subjects is more important than taking a lot of "extra" subjects.

STEM subjects will probably be less work if:

1. You find them easy. Maths and chemistry especially, can be torture if you are not a natural.
2. If you are well taught. There is a shortage of maths and science teachers and some schools end up hiring teachers who are mediocre at best, which then means that good students have to work hard to ensure they fill any gaps.

Also at University science does not divide neatly into seperate subjects and so having a fourth subject and so wider knowledge, gives you more options. Whilst having maths as a fourth can help with subjects like law and social science.

grinkle she won't need to be predicted more than one A* to secure an offer at even the top most uni however well ranked her school, provided the department likes her profile.