White British pupils underperforming because of parents

I get that Chinese thang. I don't have a PhD so my brother thinks I'm lazy It's not just a one child policy thing there are six of us, it's a cultural thing. My family dynamics are very hard to explain.

I studied library studies and social sciences so deemed a thicko subject by him. I redeemed myself by marrying someone with a PhD in a hard science subject

Here's the map

My dmum often mentions the time she attended my db's parents' evening and his teacher didn't know who he was. She was livid.

The London issue is interesting and as I understand things, the pupils there are better funded than their counterparts in other places. I have been banging on about lack of achievement in certain areas of the UK for a while now but I don't think anybody cares,

If you look at country of origin I suspect that the equivalent ethnic groups have a wide variety of aspiration - those that come here are more likely to aspire. Perhaps China is an exception because one child families have made them think more about their one heir

I know for a fact that my son wouldn't be doing as well if we weren't pushing him. We look at his books when he gets home from school to see what he's been doing and what marks he's got, we are in the same room as him when he does his homework, so we know he's doing it and we're there if he has any questions. When it comes to tests, we help him plan his revision and make sure he does it.

We do that because we both had poor educations back in the 80's. Our parents didn't care about our schooling, never checked we did our homework, barely ever went to parent's evenings. We were both "coasters" - never got into trouble, never did any revision etc, always did the only homeworks where we'd get into trouble for not doing it. The teachers just ignored us - never wondered why we were going down in terms of marks/grades as each year passed. Considering we were at schools hundreds of miles apart, our experience of schools was frighteningly similar. Result was we both got crap O levels and had to fight and work hard to get qualifications in later life to get decent careers. So, basically, two reasons for crap education - lack of parental interest and poor teaching!

Trouble is, with our son, the teaching aspect hasn't improved in the last 30+ years. From what our son says and from what we see, it's just the same. Lacklustre teachers who often don't appear to care. Our son was incredibly demoralised in year 7 when he spent hour after hour doing a history project on the crusades - he created a masterpiece, but the teacher never even bothered collecting them in, let alone marking them - a very poor example. He's had the same teacher for biology for 3 years running, yet at the latest parent's evening, the teacher couldn't remember my son by name - he had to refer to a sheet of pictures before he could recognise him - evidence that the kids who don't cause trouble and don't make a fuss are basically ignored. It's that kind of thing that have made us take control and pick up the slack that the schools won't do.

So, both parents and teachers to blame - blaming each other but not accepting their own role in the declining standards. A good teacher can make up the shortfall in parenting, good parenting can make up the shortfall in teaching, but without one or the other, it's no surprise that kids fall through the gap.

Some very good insights, DaphneWhitethigh.

It's clearly a complex problem. My feeling is, if we know a certain group is struggling we should target help at them, not blame the parents or culture.

havent read the whole thread yet but just wanted to add my thoughts. Im a child of parents who came over from asia. School was very important to my family. Having kids that were doing well at school (in academic subjects) was a status symbol. It is common on exam results day for parents to phone each other and brag about their children and how well they have done (which is awful if you dont do well).
Of course, back in my parent's country of origin, there was no benefit system as there is here. if you dont work, you dont eat. your job chances increase if you have qualifications or you happen to be well connected. For me, I am incredibly grateful that I live in a country where there is free education. I want my children to take advantage of it.

IME thecatfromjapan is that bright children from all backgrounds aren't doing well though. Bright WC children (esp white girls, in my experience) tail off during primary school and certainly in the early years of secondary, and settle for familiar low paid jobs that they know about...hairdressing, beauty therapy, retail, catering etc. Nursing or midwifery is seen as very ambitious. Being a doctor/solicitor/accountant seems out of the question.

(Generalising, I know, but holds true for the vast majority of white WC girls I've taught)

I agree with Forgetmenotblue that MC children have cultural experiences that have opened up to the world that give them a huge head start in understanding so that when they get to school it is much easier for them to grasp what is going on and what is expected of them.

I think the answer is likely to be muti-determined.

My guess is that bright children from all sorts of background are doing fairly well.

The bottom in Britain is a very low and long bottom.

And why do certain groups end up there?

Culture: quiet and respectful is going to translate well in any kind of educational setting.

I wonder what the impact of private schools is - does this trend hold good for private schools? Iis it just for poorer children?

Is it because whie British just don't think they have to work so hard at education? Perhaps contacts mean they feel that exam results aren't so necessary for social advancement? I've certainly seen lots of friends' children, with less than stellar educational results, being helped into jobs and careers.

That use of networks outside of education probably holds true at all levels of society.

There must also be some sort of interaction between the behavioural characteristics one needs in order to learn in a mass education system and cultural characteristics.

I also suspect that willingness to tutor as a supplement to mass education plays a part. And if not tutoring, then children being told in a very clear way that they have to supplement what is learned in school with extra study.

I'd love to know the answer. I feel I am a parent fighting a very educationally-negative culture when it comes to my own children.

Anyway, interesting.

The correlation between London advantage and immigrant/ESL advantage is complicated and overlapping.

London schools are better funded. I think that they also have the huge advantage that London children know full well that there really are good jobs out there for the taking for people with the right qualifications, and they'll normally have somewhere to stay while they get the first foot on the ladder. An average child in, say, Great Yarmouth, won't have that sense that there are good jobs just a bus ride away - and housing costs in areas where good jobs are plentiful pose a huge barrier to entry. There's not the same simple credibility to the equation work+qualification => good job => money.

Another very broad generalisation here but a lot of poor white children are born to young parents with limited education themselves. The parents can't help their children because they haven't got their own lives on track yet.

I completely agree with Forgetmenot, having the time and money to go to toddler groups, dance classes, music groups makes a world of difference.

I was asked recently by a fellow professional (senior to me) to provide more things in my classroom that would be user-friendly to children from a more deprived background. For example, using lots of TV themed work and characters, super heroes, sports stars, celebrities etc. I did think hard about it, but in the end declined. I feel my time is better spent 'catching children up' in the stuff they've missed rather than reinforcing low quality stereotypes and junk TV. Would be interested to know what others think though. If it was demonstrably better for the children, I do it. I can't find any evidence that it is. (Plus all my MC families would complain...)

No, of course

My point was that 'feminisation' may or may not have occurred. But it is not the reason girls are suddenly doing better - this has always been the case.

I'm going to make a very broad statement here but when I have made home visits for nursery white working class households very very rarely turn off the tv and there were no books or educational toys to be seen. Of course all the books could be in other rooms.
Houses of other nationalities the tv went off and there were generally books, magazines or newspapers about the place.

bigkidsdidit I'm talking about my experience of non-selective state education, so I'm not sure your points about the 11+ or paying for private education apply to my argument. I also believe there is no current prejudice against women entering university education.

I'm a reception teacher, 20+ years experience, in a variety of schools. I'd say the cultural differences between white working class children and white middle class children are huge. More than between white middle class children and other cultures, and the gap is growing all the time. It's about conversation/ quality verbal interactions at home, (totally agree with pipbin), ambition and suspicion of anything that seems 'posh' (i.e academic, or difficult or elite).

So MC children come to school having been to toddler music groups, museums, ballet or gym tots type stuff, watched good TV with an adult to talk to about it, probably been to a theatre or puppet show, been swimming, had a bike or trike to ride, and had a go at at an adult's hobby (woodwork, craft, tennis, sailing, riding, sewing etc with a parent or grandparent).

I'm generalising I know, and some white WC children will have done these too, but only really in aspirational families. But lots won't have any of this cultural knowledge at all, and school life is totally based on this MC culture.

Chinese (2nd gen immigrant) mum of 2 girls here. I don't know and can't comment on what other families do or don't do.

But what I do is that I expect a lot from my kids: whether they are academically able or not, I expect that they would always try their best and achieve (academically) the best they can.

DH (white British) and I both value education and have always tried to instil a love of learning. Books, museums, learning musical instruments and sports. We're very fortunate in being able to afford day trips and cultural experiences, I think this is an undeniable advantage.

We're both university educated and have so far always been interested in and able to help with school work. We don't do it for them, but ask after the kids about it. In this issue, so far, I think having girls has helped since they are both quite self motivated and competitive, so they will get the work done by themselves.

Whilst my kids are academically able by UK standards, we will continue to encourage them to do their best because as parents we're also teaching them a work ethic and that they can't rest on their laurels and expect a good life (interesting job, good standard of living etc.) by doing the bare minimum.

What form does this pushing hard that Chinese parents do take? I don't think it's just sitting around the table for dinner in the evening I tutored a delightful Chinese girl at home in SPaG and creative writing. She wasn't particularly behind but the parents wanted her to reach the old Level 4 in Y4. English was her second language. That's what Chinese parents are doing!

What form does this pushing hard that Chinese parents do take? I don't think it's just sitting around the table for dinner in the evening.

I can only speak about the parents of the few Chinese children I have taught but I know it was generally a couple of hours homework or study set by the parents on top of any school home work. Screen time has been very limited. Children were read with every day. The same was true of the parents of a Zimbabwian child I taught. The 'funny' thing was that Ofsted asked me what I was doing to give her extra support as she was the only non white child in the class.

I suffered from others at school by working hard at my white 'middle class' school.
Focus is on crap sleb culture, and if one shows an interest in things other than this they are considered snotty.
The English have had it too good for too long and simply haven't had to fight for anything.
Plus the respect for teachers is at an all time low: see the number of threads on here -who do I complain to because a teacher spoke out of turn?
Who cares, get little Jonny to do his homework and no one will be telling him he is talking rubbish.

This really is no surprise. I work with a large number of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants mainly Asian, my children's primary school is largely white British and about 50% working class. I think my attitude to my childrens' education has been massively influenced by my colleagues and I have pushed them much harder than I might have done otherwise. The reaction of the other white parents at the school has been very interesting.

I dunno.
The PISA figures are cooked, lots of kids in China & other countries don't get entered. Any report that relies on international comparisons makes me twitchy.

A lot, maybe most the people at CentreForum, have jobs with academy trusts. Apparently Centreforum isn't enough of a day job for them. Like Natalie Perera (author of NGiraffe's report) is a director of a MAT. Or a background in economics which makes me think of industry biases. Except the physicist who works as their data analyst.

So it doesn't feel to me like an independently produced report.
I don't have time to read it, and I'm sure social background is hugely important in pupil success. But maybe the conclusions aren't quite as clearcut as report makes out. Like it talks about London-restEngland divide... well Doh. Spending on London schools is A LOT higher than non-London schools.

We aren't Chinese but we certainly make sure our DC work and that entails one of us being at home when our DCs are at home (most of the time) and asking them what work they have to do, checking that they are doing it, answering any questions, making sure they study well in advance of tests, plugging gaps etc.