White British pupils underperforming because of parents

I know this effect acutely, was ridiculed when I mentioned colleges(as in Oxbridge colleges), and eventually went to a uni I loved but was overqualified for all the courses..

Forgetmenotblue - there are several choristers in my family (DC of first cousins). Their parents spend a lot of time attending services and making sure family life fits in with chorister schedules. It's a whole family commitment and not one that everyone likes.

Just look at the arts council application pages..

financial help in the Arts is there if you look and are prepared to put yourselves out a bit.

Can you elaborate? I've found it very difficult to point the kids I teach towards anything useful.

I told my dd that it was for the likes of us.
I can't stand that attitude neither.
She was in a choir where she eventually realised she wasn't getting the same opportunities as those with the right coloured blazer.
Now she is in the most fantastic school and getting the best education she could have, for her goals and ambition.
We are wc and haven't experienced any difference in attitude from the millionaires to sink estate dc. All are treated the same and the ethos of the school is carried throughout, from affordable uniform (more than state) to access of opportunity.
financial help in the Arts is there if you look and are prepared to put yourselves out a bit.

I've seen this too: bright WC musical child getting a full scholarship to a cathedral school as a chorister. Left after a term as his parents found it too posh.."it wasn't for us" etc. Tragic waste, he could have had access to all kinds of amazing opportunities.

My neighbour's daughter got into Oxford. She didn't take the place as she was worried that her fellow students would look down on her coming from a council house. Her words were 'I wouldn't fit in, it's not for the likes of me'. I can't imagine a child of any back ground from another culture turning down a place at Oxford or the like on those grounds.

Nothing short of tragic, really. What a waste.

I did the same re university, None of my family had gone, so I opted for a redbrick, even though teachers suggested Oxbridge.
When our DC turned out to be academic, we sent them to a local leading indie. Whatever the outcome, they will have had the opportunity to learn in an environment with other sparky, lively kids in a place where the teachers are inspiring and enthusiastic and there is no 'too cool for school' mentality that there was in my own and DH's schools, and the schools I teach in locally now, where the DC would otherwise have gone. The indie has many kids who are second generation immigrants which keep the game high as they and their parents are so determined to achieve.

There's a phrase in the North 'peas above sticks.' It refers to peas having grown beyond the cane they're trained to grow on. In other words, getting too big for your boots. I fucking hate it.

The "not for people like us" is something I battle against as the yr 13 form tutor at a rural school. We have a tiny 6th form anyway but only 6 have applied to university this year. Another 5 ought to have done but wouldn't for various reasons they found hard to articulate. But they're kids who have been in the same village primaries and secondary school together since they were 4. Lots of their parents went to the school and still live in the village. The thought of leaving all that familiar stuff and moving on is too much. In previous years we've had cases of students rejecting friends because they've applied to university and are therefore "up themselves" It makes for a miserable few months. A lot of it is about self-esteem, as well as aspirations. It's hard to say you want more, when you have parents and possibly grandparents locally who never did anything beyond go to the local school. If parents aren't supportive, then it's kind of like the child saying they don't value the parent's choices. I remember one very bright yr 11 boy sitting with his mum at parents evening last year talking about what he wanted to do after GCSEs and his mum saying that she didn't know why he wanted to do A Levels - an apprenticeship would be much more useful to him. He got great GCSE results and wanted to to Maths/Physics (and something else) A Levels with the intention of going into engineering. I saw him recently. He did start A Levels, but has since dropped out and is joining the army.

Agree Pirate about your early years comment. Education can seem set up work better with girls e.g. carpet time.

I work with some male students, tragic when 1 student hasn't turned up for weeks and needs that help as literacy & numeracy.

Pipbin, I can sympathise with your neighbour's daughter. I had exactly that same thought process 20 years ago.
My husband often queries why I didn't go to a 'better' university and I honestly thought I wouldn't fit in or be able to afford it. I was reliant solely on my grant, loan and whatever I could earn during the holidays. My parents were not in a position to help with more than the odd bit of food shopping or occasional £20. I wish I hadn't limited myself in that way but could see no alternative at the time. No-one in my family had gone to university and I just didn't have that network to draw on. My parents were hugely supportive and very proud of me going to university though.

Greeneleave, most children go through this phase. But rarely at the age when they have to decide whether to try for a place at Oxbridge.

a traditional WC attitude that higher education is "not for the likes of us", that it is trying to set yourself apart and "be better than the rest of us"
(have come across this attitude in some parents of dc's friends)

My neighbour's daughter got into Oxford. She didn't take the place as she was worried that her fellow students would look down on her coming from a council house. Her words were 'I wouldn't fit in, it's not for the likes of me'. I can't imagine a child of any back ground from another culture turning down a place at Oxford or the like on those grounds.

That isnt very true regarding to teacher because my daughter thinks the teachers know the best and more than me(shocking, I know, but then we agreed that at home mom knows the best). What they say is absolute and she adores them all.

It's very odd, Apple, when you come from a different culture. Both my parents were teachers and I always thought of that as one of the most respected groups in society- until I came here and started reading the papers.

A potent brew, cory.

I don't recognise the anti-teacher sentiment IRL, but it seems to be reaching a tipping point in the UK.

I think at the moment what we are getting in certain sections of the population is an unfortunate coming-together of two ways of thinking:

a traditional WC attitude that higher education is "not for the likes of us", that it is trying to set yourself apart and "be better than the rest of us"
(have come across this attitude in some parents of dc's friends)

and

the perhaps more modern "othering" of the poor as lazy scroungers who do not make a worthwhile contribution to society
(this is hardly likely to lead to very good self esteem in their offspring)

and you might add a specifically British ingredient to the mix:

the general suspicion with which teachers are viewed in this country (by Press, government and parents alike), not as respected educators but as some kind of subversive element
(hard to blame the parents for this attitude when both politicians and journalists speak as if educational policy was all about policing teachers)

Not solid data - only observations but:
in my area the single sex selective secondary schools (state) are dominated by ethnic boys and girls, Asian and Chinese.
Them being at these schools is considered natural and the result of application and hard work.
The boys parents do not think their boys are unsuited for study or are somehow hampered by testosterone
The parents do not boast about their children. (Note - yes I do know quite a few of the parents!!!)

Local state primary - all white middle class, parents boast endlessly so even quite ordinary children are painted as something special. Boys are excused a lot as not being "ready".

My colleagues in India - would fall over with shock if you informed them girls were useless at maths and IT. I work in an IT company - lots of women in our Indian offices - all with computing degrees.

So I think a lot of this is cultural.

I went to school to a grammar 30 years ago - if you had told any of the boys in my school that they couldn't be capable of reading a book or doing essays due to being boys there would have been a riot! The boys were very academically competitive and certainly didn't have messy handwriting "because boys can't hold a pen" and similar rubbish I hear spouted by some parents. They were bloody sods for ragging some of the teachers though.

Oh I see, apple. Thanks for clarifying - I agree with you.

I meant that the assumption itself is incorrect - I'm not disagreeing that this is typically British point of view.

That's really interesting Brokenbiscuit and makes a lot of sense. I do hear a lot of 'set in stone' comments from both parents and teachers - 'he does X because he's a boy, 'she does Y because she's a girl', 'he's no good at maths, well I was no good at maths either'. And if you believe that these issue are binary, and part of your make-up / genetic inheritance, then they can't be changed (much) so what is the point in working harder etc.?

The 'growth mindset' fits in well with the theory of brain plasticity, where not very much about us is 'hardwired', but skills can be developed and nurtured through practice

How do you mean, apple?

Sure, but it seems as though this study has proven this

There is often an assumption in British culture that you're either clever or you're not. You can do maths or you can't. You're either academic or you're not. And so on.

to be incorrect.

Chinese/East Asian cultures do not put much store in being naturally gifted or good at things - they believe that talent is not necessary, and that success will come with enough work.

I think Moomin has the answer here, or at least a large part of it. There is often an assumption in British culture that you're either clever or you're not. You can do maths or you can't. You're either academic or you're not. And so on.

"Hothousing" and "pushing" are frowned upon. It is generally thought that if you're naturally "bright" and do a reasonable amount of work, you will do well anyway.

Most Asian families I know tend to emphasise ability and talent much less. For them, it's all about hard work and effort. They don't put limits on their expectations based on perceptions of a child's ability. The assumption is that anyone can do really well if they put the work in.

It's a growth mindset as opposed to a fixed mindset. I think this is a massive difference between cultures.