White British pupils underperforming because of parents

Sadik - your point about the Welsh - this is The case for Chinese parents with children in English schools. So how do they do so well?

Anyone can have a piano at home if they want to - they are often given away for free (as I'm sure you know).
Yes they are but they cost a fortune to tune. Also, poor people often live in small over crowded houses without the room for a piano. If no one in the house can already play then they have to pay for lessons.

Running through speeches is about inclination as well, not about money. Play tickets cost, I grant you, but families with children get good benefits and TC in this country and they aren't THAT expensive.
Factor in getting yourself into the town as well and it starts to add up. And not THAT expensive is still a lot for a family on the breadline.

You have no idea what it is like to live on benefits if you think that you can just spend a little money on some theatre tickets.

Anyway. It's not stuff like theatre tickets and pianos that make the difference. It's taking the time to talk to your child, read with them, do some simple crafts, play in the garden, walk through the park. All things that are free or very cheap and shouldn't be asking too much of a parent.

I had a reception parent complain that I was sending a reading book home with her son. 'I can't be arsed to do this' was her comment. What chance has the poor sod got if his mother isn't interested in him when he is 4? It wasn't even a book with words. Just one of those ones where you look at the pictures and talk about the story.
I had another parent who would pick up her reception, nursery and year one children and give each of them MP3 players. They'd all put their headphones in and walk home in silence. Now I'm sure that parenting 3 children of those ages isn't easy but surely you would want to hear about their days?

It's this kind of thing that causes the problem, not theatre tickets, not piano lessons. Those things widen the gap for the middle class children but being ignored causes children to drop behind even more.

Isn't the point, though, that everything you've said is true for everyone on a low income; why does it affect white wc children more than those from other backgrounds?

" Play tickets cost, I grant you, but families with children get good benefits and TC in this country and they aren't THAT expensive. "

So long as you have a car to get there . . . unless you're in a city, plays only happen in the evening when buses don't run.

And it isn't just about trying, it's about background knowledge. When dd was smalll, I could hear her Eisteddfod piece through every day and encourage her, but I couldn't pick her up every time she pronounced an obscure Welsh word wrong, I couldn't help her get the particular stance and way of speaking that is expected (it's very specific) - not because I don't care, but because I've never been through that system myself. And you can see the results - as soon as you get through to County level, dc from Welsh language homes are in the vast majority.

"Anyone can have a piano at home if they want to - they are often given away for free (as I'm sure you know)."

I'm slightly stunned by this statement. We do have a piano (DH's), and it didn't cost us much but we then had to pay to get it tuned, it needed work to make it functionally playable, which also cost money and, probably most significant, we are only three people living in a 3 bed semi and it still takes up a bloody great chunk of our sitting room and of course no-one else can do anything loud (watch tv, talk etc) while he's playing. Oh, and the neighbours can hear whenever he plays.

Hearing speeches - not just about trying - but about having the time and energy after working 40 hours p/w in a low paid job, coming home, going round to care for elderly mum, then coming back and cooking/cleaning for 4 kids & making sure they've all got clean uniform/pe kit, have done their school homework, etc etc, just for example. (thinking of one friend who does work miracles with her dc, but she's always runnign to catch up)

"He hasn't got a piano or musical parents at home"
"Kids who don't have a parent who will taken them to see plays, run through speeches with them etc are at a disadvantage."

Anyone can have a piano at home if they want to - they are often given away for free (as I'm sure you know).

Running through speeches is about inclination as well, not about money. Play tickets cost, I grant you, but families with children get good benefits and TC in this country and they aren't THAT expensive.

It's not just about money. It's about trying. Seeing the value in it and trying.

Obviously I was saying that mumsnet is just representative of the issue , not the cause.

Ok i've changed sides. The current 'loud parenting' thread on mn seems full of accusations of poor parenting for actually telling kids stuff in eg museums/galleries/walks about town. Maybe you are all right after all

I doubt the figures relate to MNetters' / homeschooled DC: any regular reader of these boards will know that MNetters' DC are frequently prodigies and MNetters' fully involved in their education!

You see it on mumsnet a lot, people slagging off the education system. Its almost popular for parents to suggest they home school their DC because the school is to academic. Or teachers talking about striking because the system is to rigorous and its to hard to raise standards.

It doesn't surprise me at ALL that white British children are falling behind because there has been a culture of entitlement created where no white British child should have to work for anything. In the last decade we created the idea that benefits was a lifestyle choice.

You reap what you sow.

I'm not surprised that the gap widens the moment a child hits reception. We are expected to listen to our reception child read every day, but not all parents do. So that's effectively 15 mins of 1:1 education every day that some children miss out on. Schools are expected to fill that gap, but you only need a few children in a class to not be reading at home for it to be hours of missing reading across the class each day. And of course, those children will then start to miss the other benefits of reading - widening vocabulary and accessing other learning materials.

Well, they are all self-reported categories.... So anyone who considers themselves to be more Irish than British and not to be an Irish traveller... Could be American for all we know.

Why are "White Irish" doing so well at 15? What's going on there? Are "White Irish" students from Northern Ireland ?

Newlife thanks!

Also meant to add, I've seen other posts from you and I know you go well beyond your role for your students.
It is people like you fighting for equality that gives these kids the opportunities to access.

My apologies Evil

I didn't mean to come across as blaze and that it was easy, I know myself it isn't.
We aren't terrifically poor but certainly only afford the couple of k for dd fees.
There are no family holidays but we manage a cheap break now and again, luckily we have low outgoings and tax credits just about manage it.

It must be hard for those without supportive parents and my heart goes out to those kids who really want to do it.
Before we knew we could afford dd school we kept telling her that if she didn't pass audition or we couldn't afford it, she must remember that thousands of musicians had good careers without attending the school.

NewLife I think you underestimate just how difficult it is for some kids . I am that pushy drama teacher. Over the last three years, I have helped two of my most talented students through NYT & NYMT auditions. One got in last year The other is still waiting to hear for this year. The one who got an NYMT recall was sent sheet music a week in advance. It was half term. He hasn't got a piano or musical parents at home. I met with him twice during half term to work on his pieces. It's similar with audition pieces for drama school/NYT. Kids who don't have a parent who will taken them to see plays, run through speeches with them etc are at a disadvantage. The money is a huge issue. Lots don't have the opportunity to save up - a number of our 6th formers have part time jobs from which they need to pay for clothes, travel to school, food during the day etc. One of my most talented girls has shelled out over £600 in drama school audition fees this year. Luckily she does have supportive parents but she has had to drop the choir she was in to take on extra shifts at work to contribute.

Seems a slight exaggeration that drama schools audition all over the country: dd (on her second year of auditioning) has always chosen the nearest venue and that still runs into a lot of money in train fares (we are approximately halfway between London and Bristol). And most people need to audition for more than one drama school to stand a reasonable chance. Dd has mentioned experiences of being one of maybe two state educated students at an audition. (doesn't put her off in the least, but that's dd).

Evil
It says on their website that they do. They reimburse all costs and you fill in the form for support before you audition.
I know that all parents don't have £80 spare for audition, but most could budget over time.
I know you'd need support but teachers can make children aware of what is out there and if they are independant, help with form completing etc.
For those not in education or training they even offer free courses.

I know it isn't easy and that those with money can just write a cheque and know about opportunities, whereas poorer can't.
A lot of the time the young person has to do the donkey work if they are from a less well to do family, but it certainly doesn't make them less deserving.
They all have to audition for these National Associations so at least in that sense they are open to all.

My dd wants to join National Youth Choir when a little older, she knows we can't afford it and is saving up, doing odd jobs and counting the years and days before she can obtain a buskers license. Lots of better off children won't have to do this, but what do you do, give up and say that's not for you dd?

NewLife. NYT do not offer financial help with auditions. Their fund raising packs suggest things like sponsored events. They do offer bursaries, that's true, but the expense of auditioning is enough to put lots of students off. There are one or two charities which offer help with recall auditions for drama schools but the schools themselves charge £80-£100 audition fees, sometimes on top of the UCAS fee. Also, children who want to do drama/dance etc and have neither supportive parents nor a pushy teacher at school have very little chance of finding this stuff. Bursaries etc are usually dependent on parents filling in forms about income which, in itself, requires a supportive parent.

Arts council does not give money to individuals.

I know 3 women who are in their 30's, with secure tendencies on 4 bedroom houses, the equivalent of 55k a year in earned income each through benefits (40k in hand to cover all living costs including rent). None of them has any qualifications or work experience. They have achieved this income and secure housing by producing 6 children each as single parents

What happens when the DCs leave home, surely the money will dry up.

Perhaps Asian families all have someone at home to supervise homework etc. Not necessarily DM, could be DGP. Many white families will have both DPs working.

I do think that if you've travelled to a new country you are going to make the best of it. The nonsense, that we were constantly told by gov,about immigrants admiring our British values was probably much more them admiring free education.

There is so much on tv - the voice etc where ordinary folks shoot to fame, likewise some young bloggers - so you can be famous and rich without qualifications.

I live in the US sometimes and if a member of the public is interviewed on tv they can make a good explanation and speak clearly (perhaps not parts of the backwoods). If you stop many Brits they will have an extreme local accent and probably lack the confidence to put themselves over. Also it is cool to babble/mumble in local dialect. There use to be a language for work/school and another for pals, not now.

Most of my teacher friends are retiring now but when they were at school they all hated maths, did the bare minimum. I'm sure they were good teachers but it could be that still there is a bias with the many female teachers in primary not enthused about maths. There is obviously a dearth of female stem students (constantly being promoted) so presumably that stretches to teachers too.

Ds' best friend's mum is actively trying to dissuade him (my ds, that is, not just her own son) for studying for his GCSE's- why do you need that?

Good grief. Have you had a word?

Ds' best friend's mum is actively trying to dissuade him (my ds, that is, not just her own son) for studying for his GCSE's- why do you need that?

EvilTwins

NYT for a start offer fund raising packs for those who can't afford fees. My dd would have done anything if she had wanted to go.

There are free courses and bursaries/ hardship fund etc that even pay for travel to the audition.

Auditions are in Cities all over the place, you don't need to be in London.

The National Choirs are the same, as are the dance schools.

The bursaries and funds cover the summer Schools and concerts too.