A level choices - facilitating subjects again

Bristol is well placed for entry standards due to the lingering perception (particularly by private school and grammar pupils) that it is a top place so relatively high quality and number of applications. Bristol is not doing particularly well according to a number of measures - not just student satisfaction. I think the slip down the league tables is correlated with real issues (in my subject area).

Surrey is doing well in many league tables as their ex-vice chancellor focussed strongly on improving metrics measured by league tables. Whether Surrey deserves to be top 10 is debatable. (I wouldn't send my DC there in my own subject area, if they had the choice of other top 10 universities.)

The discussion of RG v non RG detracts from the whole point of the informed choices booklet: many students still pick A levels without looking at university requirements and unwittingly exclude themselves from their desired courses. Many schools and sixth form colleges give extremely poor advice about choices of A level subjects for particular degrees e.g. law A level is never needed for a law degree and is not favoured by top universities. But doing two facilitating subjects plus another subject is almost always going to be fine, provided essential prerequisites are included.

I suspect that most MN children make perfectly reasonable choices, which keep open lots of options. But it is sad to see students with strong grades and poor subject combinations being excluded from the courses they want to enter. (E.g. prospective engineers having design technology and psychology but either no physics or no maths.)

Presumably a milk round university is one from which big firms recruit graduates in what was called the milk round when I graduated in the mid 1990s. I don't know how that process has changed since then. As an employer who has read a lot of cvs I can agree with what an earlier poster said - I would consider degrees from all those top 20/30 universities as valuable as each other with the exception perhaps of Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial (for science) . A levels are a very useful measure particularly if someone got AAA twenty years ago! (I am looking for teachers so A levels are relevant and I realise they won't be in all jobs).

bojo a case of lies, damned lies, and statistics perhaps. Plus the subject tables may tell rather more.

I was surprised at Bristol's overall position and indeed that for a few others.

However filter (on CUG) for Graduate Prospects and Bristol is almost within the top 10, although still below Surrey but above Exeter. Manchester only just in top 30 though ??? Whether what is actually measured to compile each of the three tables is really meaningful is a whole other question. Similarly Bristol is well placed for entry standards. Student Satisfaction seems to be the current achilles' heal, bottom quartile, although better than Edinburgh which props up almost every other uni.

sorry op for the digression from A level subject choices

Go on, I'll bite... what the hell is a 'milk round' university?

In all my years teaching A levels I never heard that term used. Bristol is a 'red brick', as far as I am aware!

I think too much worry can go into this and DC can end up being disuaded from doing things they are passionate about. I teach and a couple of years ago our head girl got into Cardiff with English Lit, History, Business Studies and BTEC Performing Arts.

The same year a boy got into Coventry with similar subjects (inc the BTEC)

I think these lists depend on where the emphasis is put. Clearly Bristol graduates get lots of good jobs. Bristol is very much a "Milk Round" university.

I think they are also universities where students are not always impressed with the teaching. They may have high class academics, but teaching could be better. Employers do not really care about this unless it is a vocational course. Sheffield and Bristol would still be desirable for Engineering for example.

I think that employers do not always see lists in the same way that compilers of these lists do. So what may seem to be a good university according to the lists, may be less impressive to employers because their criteria are different and they focus in far more on the individual. I am not sure employers see Exeter as way better than Bristol or Edinburgh for example. Also, being honest, the degree is the gateway to a career and a job. Is an employer really going to rate Surrey over Manchester, Leeds or Nottingham? Or would they look at all the applicants from these universities equally if the qualities of the applicants met their needs? I think they would.

And that is a prime example of why looking at what each individual Uni says, rather than relying on generalised guides.

Can we ask how non-facilitating your DC's possible A level choices actually are op ?

Cambridge Subject Matters seems to include a fair number of options

Choosing subject combinations that genuinely keep your options open is trickier than you might think. We often encounter students who have chosen to take two arts and two science subjects at AS Level because they believe it will keep their options open. While such a subject combination does provide a suitable preparation for many arts and social science courses at the University it can make you a less competitive applicant for Cambridge’s broad-based science courses.

There are certain A Level subjects that are considered either essential or useful for a number of courses at Cambridge, therefore choosing one or more of these will help keep your higher education options open. These subjects include: Chemistry, English Literature, History, languages, Mathematics and Physics. Other subjects that also facilitate course choice at Cambridge include Further Mathematics and Biology.

If you want to keep your options open but you think you are likely to want to study an arts/social science or science-based course at university please read our further advice overleaf.

Are you inclined towards the arts or social sciences?

If you think you would like to study an arts or social sciences course at university but you are not sure which one, then English Literature†, History, languages and Mathematics are good ‘keystone’ subjects:choosing one or more of these will provide a good foundation for your subject combination

Other good choices to combine these subjects with include: an additional language, Ancient History,Classical Civilisation, Economics, Further Mathematics, Geography, Philosophy, Religious Studies and sciences Biology, Chemistry or Physics.

Other possible subject choices, for instance Archaeology, Citizenship, English Language, Environmental Science, Government and Politics, History of Art, Law, Music, Psychology or Sociology, are useful preparation for some of our arts and social sciences courses

www.kings.cam.ac.uk/files/undergraduate/subject-matters.pdf

If you include the now defunct 94 group, pretty much all the top 40 are either RG or 94.

I keep seeing Bristol slumping down the charts.

Back in my day (80s) it was definitely no.3 after Oxbridge. What has caused its fall from grace? People my age I think are still "impressed" by Bristol and would assume it is still a "milk round" type of place.

Also, aside from the reputation issue, the problem with rating course over institution ignores the thorny issue of the calibre of students. I don't doubt that the UniversityofFoundedLastWeek may have a marvellous course in such and such, but it wouldn't feel right to encourage an A* type of student to go to an institution full of C and D-ers.

The 'Which!' guide to A Level choices is quite good if the student has an idea about what course they would like to study at University.

Link

nice piece of work Boys3! now could you do that on a subject by subject basis.

and presumably to cover a number of years so that any trends can start to be identified. May as well get the specification absolutely right. Although as foundations go not 100% convinced by Uni league tables :)

search.ucas.com/

Forget all the headlines, all the advice, the flash harries offering books, secrets etc. If your DC know what kind of degree they want they can spend a day or so looking at the different related degrees and see precisely what associated GCSE and A levels each offering Uni do or do not look favourably on.

Bear in mind that schools still don't have up-to-date and expert advice on this, funding and resources simply no longer exist (not blaming schools, just bemoaning the stupidity of the system). Do your own specific research and then visit A level providers to discuss their provision.

You might find that an FE college will give you completely different advice to that you got at a VI form... I know I used to surprise parents with our advice, they often had never been told certain 'obvious' things. So do talk to a wide range of providers... you never know!

nice piece of work Boys3! now could you do that on a subject by subject basis.....

just in case anyone was wondering and it is absolutely fine if you were not

from the 2016 tables, amalgamating placements from all three tables (a dodgy methodology if ever there was one) . Placements after Uni name are Sunday Times, CUG, and Guardian respectively. The Guardian does produce a few spectacular differences, but only a few.

Although anyone recently arrived from Planet 9 might assume places 1 to 24 would be RG uni's strangely this is not the case :)

1. Cambridge 1 / 1 / 1
2. Oxford 2 /2 / 2
3. St Andrews 4 / 5 / 3
4. Imperial 3 / 4 / 8
5. Durham 5 / 5 / 6
6. Warwick 6 / 7 / 6
7. Surrey 8 / 8 / 4
8. LSE 9 / 3 / 13
9. Exeter 7 / 10 / 9

Depends on the subjects chosen and the aim OP.

If the two non-facilitating are Media and PE, the two facilitating are French and Geography and the aim is History at Oxford then that's a no.

If on the other hand the two non-facilitating are Economics and RE, alongside just History, then even Oxford should be happy with those, assuming top grades of course.

True, but a highly ranked non-RG university such as Bath will have very similar opinions on subjects to those expressed in the RG informed choices brochure

no disagreement from me on that. Purely raised just to challenge the notion that the RG group is the be all and end all, when there are a number of non RG highly rated Unis. Its only a few years back when Durham, Exeter and York where not in the RG group either.

40% of the top 20 overall are not RG.

True, but a highly ranked non-RG university such as Bath will have very similar opinions on subjects to those expressed in the RG informed choices brochure.

I would also be very wary about taking Noble's link too seriously. Sure, you can get into many courses will less than ideal A level subjects, because even top universities need more students year on year to break even financially (fees fixed). But that doesn't mean to say that some A level choices aren't better preparations than others. So while e.g. you can get into many RG maths courses with Maths plus any 2 other subjects at AAB+ you will be in a much better position to do well on a Maths course if you have related subjects such as FM or physics as one of your A levels rather than e.g. law or drama.

unfortunately boys3 it is not only MN that falls for the marketing of the RG group; Ofsted and 6th form providers have also fallen for it

really interesting link noble

Also worth remembering that contrary to popular MN belief RGs are not the ultimate be all and end all. Taking the three guides (ST Sunday Times, CUG Complete University Guide and G Guardian) 40% of the top 20 overall are not RG, no doubt similar picture if individual degree subjects looked at.

fwiw OP DS1 did Class Civ at A level and is currently at the Uni at the top of all three of those tables.