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Original poster

Can you explain the logic behind not setting?

55 replies

Turquoiseskies · 08/02/2016 19:07

Ds will start at a large ofsted level 3 school in year 7.

A large bulk of the school will come from areas where expectations are low. These children will come in achieving at a lower level. This may be due to ability or lack of parental expectation amongst other things I guess.
A smaller number come from an area where children are likely to have a higher level when going in. Many children from this area will have been sent to private secondary hence why less of them.
My ds is quiet and conscientious and should be achieving a level 6 by the summer.
I have reservations about the school but we have no option. According to ofsted there is a culture of low level distribution in the classes. I had clung onto the fact that ds would be in the higher sets and that would hopefully mean he avoided much of the disruption.
Anyhow I have heard that there is a move away from setting now and that they will be having mixed groups.
So behaviour aside how on earth can a secondary teacher manage for example a class of 33 where the range of ability is so huge. I can't see that benefiting the able , less able or middle children and I'm
Not sure who benefits. Or are the clever ones meant to help the rest?
I'm worried he will get bored or teased for being clever or fail to make progress etc
Any experiences welcome.

OP posts:
Original poster
Turquoiseskies · 09/02/2016 19:54

Well a slightly mixed response now. You are right the low level disruption is a concern. There was a mass exodus of teachers last summer from the school and lots of new ones this year which may help. But then if I was a teacher would I be applying for that school or the outstanding one with a sixth form? If they don't attract the good teachers how can they improve.
Also if the bulk of pupils are from poorer areas with lower expectations and ability I presume the disruption is inevitable.
I'm so glad I'm not a teacher. Hats off to you. Mid say even on waiting list no chance with the other school. I spoke to a staff member there and she says they've had about 1500 people put it first for 250 places this year. Lots moving into catchment .

OP posts:
mercifulTehlu · 09/02/2016 17:47

I'm a teacher and agree with what TimelyTess said upthread. Mixed ability makes teaching an even more impossible job than it is otherwise.

EvilTwins - it's all very well saying it's down to the teacher but you're never going to have a system where all teachers are brilliant at behaviour management and outstanding differentiators. You're just not. By definition, many teachers are average. Some are below average. And currently many of the good and experienced ones are quitting in disgust. So maybe it's time to make teachers' jobs easier instead of just making them harder and harder and just expecting teachers to magically get better or 'man up'.
Haven't rtft but one other argument for mixed ability is that no one teacher gets all the low ability kids. It's a stupid argument though - you allocate a spread of different sets across the year groups.

Sallyhasleftthebuilding · 09/02/2016 17:28

Uniform is linked to low level disruption because Claire has purple hair and James skirt is too short - it's the same thing

BoffinMum · 09/02/2016 16:42

There is no excuse for low level disruption and it should not be tolerated. I wish schools fussed about that rather than uniform.

BoffinMum · 09/02/2016 16:41

Statistically speaking, if you ditch setting and streaming, eventually the overall level of education in the population is higher ...

BUT

It relies on teachers being able to differentiate really well, whilst managing behaviour really well at the same time

AND

Whenever academics make the general population argument, they fail to take into account the fallout for bright kids while this is panning out.

What is the solution for parents?

  1. Get on the governing body and PTA committee, pronto.
  2. Push for the school to develop a teaching and learning focus rather than one mainly based on day-to-day routine matters.
  3. Get to know your child's teachers really well so you can work with them to track progress over time properly.
ASmallHenInItsLateForties · 09/02/2016 14:56

Also agree with Timelytess. The low level disruption that is tolerated in some of my dc's classes is appalling.

JellyTotCat · 09/02/2016 14:50

Good, thanks.

multivac · 09/02/2016 14:49

"All secondary schools are being made to get rid of setting?"

No, they're not.

JellyTotCat · 09/02/2016 14:44

All secondary schools are being made to get rid of setting? Have i understood that correctly?

neuroticnicky · 09/02/2016 14:43

Your view may depend upon your own DC and the pupils in the particular school. I would be happy to send DD to our local comp because there is setting but would not send her there if there wasn't. This is because -since there is no grammar school in our area- there appears to be such a wide gap between the brightest and the least able pupils.

Sallyhasleftthebuilding · 09/02/2016 13:23

I understand the mixed ability is from the government and all schools are doing it. DD is set for maths only in year 7 and now maths and English for year 8 - hard going in English when some can't read -

Mixed for sport/home ed/wows work ict etc works ok -

redskytonight · 09/02/2016 13:15

DS goes to a school that doesn't set (except for maths). The next closest secondary school sets rigorously in every subject from day 1.
The intakes of the 2 schools are virtually identical in terms of mix of high/medium/low achievers and family backgrounds.

The results (at GCSE) are also virtually identical.

The acid test (in any type of school) is whether your child is given appropriate challenge for them. Not whether the school has sets or not!

neuroticnicky · 09/02/2016 10:44

There is no logic in not setting. It may occasionally be OK if the standard of teaching is incredibly high as it is much harder to teach a mixed ability class.But normally setting leads to higher performance all round, as it challenges children of higher ability more and at the same time enables more attention to be given to at the bottom. When DH was at a top private school he was in the bottom set for maths which was given the best maths teacher. A similar system exists at DD's state primary school where those needing additional help are given the best (or at least best qualified) teacher.

thecatfromjapan · 09/02/2016 10:42

Yy @ previous poster. 'Low level disruption' is whT sets my klaxons off.

thecatfromjapan · 09/02/2016 10:40

Put ds on waiting list for good school. Keep checking how waiting list is going. It might take a year or so but vacancies arise
On offers-day, all the popular schools are over-subscribed. A year later, children have left.
The mixed-ability thing sounds like one of a number of issues with this school.

Traalaa · 09/02/2016 10:29

I haven't a clue if DS's comp is stopping setting, but I agree with EvilTwins, as DS seems to be doing as well/ enjoying the subjects he's not streamed for as for the ones he is streamed for. It's the teachers that make the difference.

From what you say, what would worry me is the combination of no setting and low level disruption. A good teacher can work out differentiated teaching, but if there's disruption too that's going to make it all ten times harder.

EvilTwins · 09/02/2016 07:45

I teach mixed ability. Admittedly not a core subject, but the students I teach do well at GCSE and A Level, across the board, no matter what their starting points. I differentiate. I deal with any behaviour issues.

The poster who said it's down to the teacher is right.

My results are amongst the best in the school and this year I got more A and A* grades at GCSE than the local super selective grammar.

It doesn't HAVE to be a disaster.

HPFA · 09/02/2016 07:05

Is it possible for you to go on the waiting list for your more favoured school? I'm not sure that non-setting will become widespread throughout state schools. Whilst I think its perfectly possible to have mixed ability humanities lessons in a well-disciplined environment I think it is very difficult in maths and science.
This school will be having close monitoring from Ofsted - if the new setting policy doesn't improve things I imagine it won't last long.

BackforGood · 08/02/2016 23:28

So do I timelytess Grin

timelytess · 08/02/2016 21:16

I agree with timelytess
Frame that, please.

Original poster
Turquoiseskies · 08/02/2016 21:11

There's a fantastic state school which is closer but if you aren't in catchment zero chance of getting in.
The other state schools may be slightly better but logistically a pain and I'm wondering whether the not setting is being rolled out through all state schools now.

OP posts:
Lucsy · 08/02/2016 20:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
Turquoiseskies · 08/02/2016 20:56

Is it something that's going to be happening in all schools btw? Presumably even the outstanding schools may struggle with the ability mix? Though maybe the behaviour will be better. Or can schools choose to continue to set.
At our local school ofsted commented that the clever boys were not achieving as they should so this can only be a backward step and they can't afford to go backwards.

OP posts:
MyBigFatGreekYoghurt · 08/02/2016 20:50

I agree with timelytess

honeysucklejasmine · 08/02/2016 20:49

Eugh. Even when there are sets the range can be quite large, especially in bottom sets. Complete nightmare trying to teach a coherent lesson when Sarah, who wants to do well, has finished two minutes after setting the task and Sue hasn't picked up her pen yet cause she wants to check her make up.

Intentionally not setting is fucking ridiculous.