Can anyone 'rank' the SW London selective schools

Oops wrong thread, sorry!

The Y6 girl who did the tour with us at NLCS said that from her Reception class 5 girls have already left. So roughly 25% cannot cope at all.

Unless daughter's IQ is well over 130, OP is well advised just to look at schools with a reasonably easy journey from home.

Try those journeys at 7.45 on a school day, to get the feel of it.

Just my opinion....

[LEH is in Hampton, Old Palace the centre of Croydon]

@FlumePlume if your DD is seriously an SPGS contender you have plenty of easier options there.

FlumePlume - have you discounted Surbiton High and Graveney?

Emanuel registrations for Sept 2018 have already closed.

It has gone so hugely pressured for them that they are changing systems for entry from 2019 onwards. They'll be switching to a fixed (and quite short) applications window in the autumn before prospective entry, and all on-time applicants (and alll siblings) can sit the exam. But they might not be able to interview all applicants (as they do now). Which might mean they are moving more towards a top scores (for non-siblings, non-potential-scholars) rather than the level of attention they claim to give all comers at the moment.

Going back to the issue of whether the state or independents are more selective, clearly there are stremely bright children in both.
If however, you look at the bottom end off most cohorts in the independent schools and you look at those who applied to both state super selectives and the independent, what is often the case, is that those bottom end of the cohort children got the independent but not the super selective state school offer.
It's difficult to be absolutely precise with this, because many of the children in the super selective state schools won't have applied to any independents due to cost and of course lots of the independent school children won't have looked at any statute schools. However, a fair number do sit both. Where they actually end up is determined by where they get offers from, what they can afford or not afford, where they live and what they decide is best for their families given those kind of oractical issues.

At the top end of the very selective independents (those who get academic scholarships) and the next levels down, you find that those who sat for super selective state schools got offers in those too. However, by the time you get to the bottom of the cohort, who are still clearly clever children, but perhaps got in off the waiting list, or were right at the bottom of those offered originally, you find that fewer who sat the super selectives such as Tiffin got those too. Yes, they are different exams, which makes it even harder to compare, but the fact remains that each year numbers of boys and girls who sit both types of exam get into the high achieving independent but don't make it into the super selectives against the couple of thousand who might be applying - huge numbers! Obviously, those who get into the super selective state schools have passed and got in - some have turned down independent places to be there, many haven't because they never applied to independent schools.
So, all I'm saying is that, amongst the independent selectives and the state super selectives, there is a range of selectivity. It is the super selective state schools where the numbers applying are so vast in relation to the places available that are the most super selective of all schools - Tiffin, St Olaves, Pates come to mind as prime examples.
Doesn't mean these are better schools. People like to quote the A Level and Oxbridge entry results and show that they add little value to the already hugely bright intakes. People like to stress the lesser extra curricular opportunities in those schools.....may all be valid and justify spending £X for the independent option if you have a choice between the two. At the end of the day, you should be getting something extra for all that cash!

And re below top 50 schools and Oxbridge offers - of course the doors are open to those students, in the same way they are to children from all schools across the country. I guess, it's just that statistically the numbers from the lower ranked schools who get places as a ratio of their sixth forms is lower. DIdnt the Sutto Trust show a huge proportion of Oxbridge places went to students from something like 6 institutions - can't remember the exact details. So statistically, if you're at one of those places, you probably have a better chance.....but then of course you are amongst the most clever in all likelihood if you are there to start with!

What about good students in West London NOT at a Top 50 school? Why would Oxbridge doors not be open to them?

Looking back its about keeping doors open. Oxbridge etc doors are open to a good student from any top 50 West London school. At the moment US/Ivy doors may be a bit more open from SPGS, but the Westminster sixth form option is as good if you are looking at North America.

It is the same at University. DS and a couple of good friends ended up in London. They are now looking as Masters. Their chances and options are just as good as they would have been had they gone to Oxbridge. And DS has been luckily that his course has proved a near perfect fit with his interests, which in retrospect would not have been so at Cambridge.

League tables are historic and based on other students results. There is a wonderful choice for those looking for academic schools in West London. It's the best school for the child, not simply 'the best school'.

That's interesting @FlumePlume! I didn't even know about St Paul's until I was in my 20s and worked in the City. They just never shouted about it. I since discovered there were a number of Paulinas/OPs at my college but I never knew. Whereas everyone knew who went to Eton!
LEH and SPGS have very good buses and G&L/LU (I think) don't. And the change on the tube is a pain. But that isn't a consideration for every family I know.

Thanks @needmoresleep - great post and always helpful to hear balanced opinions from someone who has been through it already.

It's always difficult to compare schools with different levels of selectivity at the start.

For what it's worth, Manon's views are by no means uncommon in West London. DD found it a bit tedious when her peers felt the need to remind her that they were more academic. Especially if she was helping them with their maths homework at the time.

In the end all that matters is they get the next step. And that they enjoyed school, built good study habits, are grounded with a realisation that education gives them responsibilities not entitlement, and that they have found interests and friends that will sustain them well beyond school. Neither of mine ended up at Oxbridge but both are more than happy in terms of places on the courses they wanted. The girls DD knew at SPGS had a bit of a mix of outcomes with at least a couple of girls, who were superbright at 11 fading at 18. We also knew a few who were obviously unhappy and who did not last the course. Others though did very well, and the school suited them. However her peers at Latymer Upper also did extraordinarily well, especially when comparing what I would see as like for like. Having met quite a few adults who went to SPGS (and for some reason you always seem to be told) it is not an advantage to think you are brighter than others.

SPGS has a comparative advantage if you are aiming for US Universities. And it is the school that seems to most clearly mirror academic counterparts in North America. But otherwise don't fret. Find the school that suits your daughter best, including journey.

Both DC went through Westminster sixth form, which takes girls from a range of schools, state and private. One or two SPGS girls were clearly a bit special, but so were some from other schools. As for the rest, there was no obvious evidence that the SPGS girls were brighter or better taught.

I agree Wimbles - I know plenty of families not even looking at Tiffin or grammars for various reasons.
At my DD's apparently dismal 😂 school (which has been fabulous at primary level) nearly all the girls are staying on.
I think for SPGS to be worth the journey, you have to have the sort of personality to thrive in that environment (putting the appalling attitudes upthread aside for now). If it would be worth the journey I suspect you would already know for yourself by having a super strong performer already and going to look round.

I think some of what you're saying js true - however I know of boys who passed Tiffin and yet failed KCS - the exams are very different. Grammars like Tiffin and Wilsons set a very high bar for Maths as they've got too many boys good at Maths sitting them - these boys are often mediocre at English.
This is the main reason we decided to sit privates as well (only two) as we felt that DS' strength is actually in English and not Maths.
Sorry I'm rambling - the Grammars in Sutton and Kingston set a very specific type of exam - to say those kids are brighter is not accurate for the above reasons.

Isn't it a fact, that by nature of their fees, the number applying for independent schools (even the more selective, higher achieving ones) will be limited compared to those applying for state grammars?

Parents like to think that whichever independent their child has gone to, because they have sat an exam, it must be selective and their child has passed, is clever and has beaten a load of others to get the place. However, in the end, all of the kids find a place at a school and those who want to pay will all find a place in a fee paying school, probably having sat an exam. Bearing in mind that statistically many of the children want ifn places at independent schools won't be super bright or even slightly bright, it must mean that many schools, whatever they say are not actually highly selective at all.

Although some of the schools we are talking about have large numbers sitting the exams, often they are sitting many exams and they can only take up one school place....so this skews it all and makes the schools seem more competitive than they really are. Even at the very top ones, kids have often sat another really top school exam too and will get offered both....and they can only take one. Many schools will need to offer twice as many places (or more) as they actually have, in order to fill up. They hope that those who scored higher in the exam will be the ones who say 'yes' and for the more highly regarded, they will attract more of the top performers, but those that aren't quite top notch and might be the back up for many, they may find that most of the top performers go elsewhere .....so the huge number who sat the exam (many with it as 2nd, 3rd or fourth choice) is misleading about its true popularity and selectiveness. That's where the generous bursaries come in - a marketing tool to attract the better candidates to choose this school rather than another.

It's a different game for the state grammars in areas with no catchment. When people sit consortium exams or exams for an individual school, far more would say 'yes' if offered a place, because it is free. In my mind, this is what makes those state grammars like Tiffin truly super selective, whereas the schools like RGS Guildford won't be as super selective....the fact fees will need to be paid will always limit the numbers applying.

Parents love to say their child has passed the exam for X and especially to say they have been offered an award to X, but also had an offer to Y and Z with scholarships too....what a tricky choice to make, tinkly laugh. Many Schools know that 500 sat the exam but they will need to offer 300 places to fill 100 and of those 100 who say yes, perhaps they will get 30 from the top 100 who sat the exam....not quite so selective after all.

Wouldn't it be interesting to see how many sat each place, how many were offered, how many sat different numbers of exams and for each school, how many of the top performers in their exam actually took up a place and how many much lower performers ended up with a place there. I guess the school so old that like us to know that!

I think there's a tendency for current parents to take comments about their dcs schools very personally. Odd because I can definitely see faults in my kids' schools. It's not an insult I f your children - let's be honest - we're all really lucky to be sending our kids to any of these amazing schools - and we're really quibbling over details ☺️

"This thread isn't about you" is clearly telling me to no longer say my piece

And why be so coy, surely if you are a parent at the least dismal school in London you should be open about it? (PS it was already clear to me and several other posters that you were a current parent)

Where did I say you you shouldn't be posting?

Where did I say I wasn't a current parent?

Let me get this straight. You are posting your opinions of 40 years ago about one particular school and your second hand gossip about another on a thread asking for information about these schools and when I, a current parent, disagree, you tell me I shouldn't be posting? I've heard it all now.

I said I was at PHS junior school in the 70s, I went to St Paul's in the 80s. I made no comment about where my children are at school - but I have said clearly that my view was based on experiences both past and present.

If you're happy with your children's schools, what on earth are you getting so worked up about? This thread isn't about you.