Should I send my kid to a grammar school

At least they are trying and it seems for the moment PP children are getting places at grammars where they wouldn't have qualified previously.

Govt funding has been changed so that schools with more PP pupils get more funding and those with few have suffered quite harsh funding cuts. That's certainly going to drive schools to increase the number of PP pupils on their books. My son's grammar school's published accounts clearly show a reduction in government funding which has meant redundancies and some subjects no longer being taught.

It's a fine line. You can't start accepting children who aren't going to fit in, either in terms of discipline, ability, etc. as it's unfair to other children, they don't want to risk lowering their exam results statistics, and more importantly, it's a great disservice to the PP child themselves if they're not going to be happy there and aren't going to be able to keep up with the work.

But, at the end of the day, the grammar takes the top x number of applicants, so plenty of kids will achieve a "pass" mark but not be offered a place because others have scored higher marks (or live closer). So there is scope for tweaking the admission criteria to give a modest weighting for PP children who "pass" but are too low down the list to be offered a place, and put them up the list to give them a place, but inevitably that means someone who got a higher score or lives further away, losing their place. What isn't acceptable is admitting PP kids who get low marks in the 11+ just in order to secure govt funding and tick boxes.

But, none of that deals with the "poverty of aspiration" where the parents of some children don't value education, or, as discussed on this thread, are against grammars. If the kids aren't put in for the 11+ or are entered but get no parental support with practising and exam technique, etc., they'll not get a place even with some kind of weighting.

Our son's grammar work with local primary schools to try to solve this issue. They have a scheme where the primary schools select a small number of children who they've identified may be suitable for grammar, and they go to the grammar one afternoon per week for several weeks to experience it - they have a separate classroom, dedicated teacher and support staff, etc. The aim being to get the children to want to go there themselves, so as to substitute the parental push that is lacking. Unfortunately, it falls down because it's up to the primary to choose the children to attend, and, inevitably, that means nepotism and bias comes into play - the kids chosen by our primary were the children of the staff and governors. In the end, 9 children went to one of the two grammars, very few of whom had attended the grammar's programme, in fact most of the ones who went didn't even enter for the 11+. So it wasn't a great success, but more the fault of the primary rather than the grammar!

This is in effect what is happening in Birmingham, the pass rate for PP places ends up lower (although not required to be) so is like a weighting. Predictions are that it will change over time to be less of a discrepancy as more become aware of it and advantages are taken - although they may just tweak qualification (eg just having had to be on PP a short time in the past seems to be skewing things) for those places of they see it being mis-used. At least they are trying and it seems for the moment PP children are getting places at grammars where they wouldn't have qualified previously.

There isn't really a way round it. There is a culture in some communities that their child should go to the school on the estate where all their parents went and friends go. And there is a culture with many "groups" of parents that your child should go to the place which gets the highest grades according to the slant/measure that the latest league table has taken.

A school coming out of special measures can be appalling as staff turnover will be high due to the stress of endless inspections with different criteria and approaches each time; or it could be great, with a fabulous new head and a team of driven teachers. A grammar can be quite low in terms of "energy" and exciting teaching, or it can be at the cutting edge. Staff turnover tends to be very low which can be good or bad. You can get teachers who have been there since 1978 and are set in their ways, but you have a constancy and a settled feeling that is rare in many schools.

You need to visit it to make up your mind. I would say that the vast majority of kids tend to do brilliantly in terms of grades at grammar, but there are a few who can't keep up and bomb. Also, some grammars have more issues with mental health due to the stress that the girls or boys put themselves under as they are so keen to do well. If your child crumbles quickly under pressure then maybe have another think.

If you like it and your child likes it then sod the rest. You don't want him to turn round and ask you in 10 years why it was that you and he both liked the grammar school but why you picked the comp because of Aunty Mabel.

"Perhaps they could introduce a "weighting" to redress the balance. There must be some way round it"

There is. It's called a comprehensive school.

They still have to pass. Which is where the problem lies in the first place.

Perhaps they could introduce a "weighting" to redress the balance. There must be some way round it.

They still have to pass. Which is where the problem lies in the first place.

You are correct they don't have to get lower scores, I incorrectly stated the result of the Birmingham region reserving a number of places for PP children which has the effect of lowering the pass mark/score for those children. This could of course change in future years - it is just the first few years of the PP reserved places.

I don't think there are any grammar schools where children attracting pupil premium need to get lower scores, are there?

A few have instituted a system where a very small number of children attracting pupil premium and who have passed the test are given priority for places before the usual distance criteria kick in.

Perhaps they should use means-testing to accept a proportion of the best-performing children from each income bracket?

In some regions they do. The score required is lower for those who are on pupil premium.

If he wants to go send him. Its an excellent opportunity. My dd loves it.

Sadly that isn't the reality these days.

Perhaps they should use means-testing to accept a proportion of the best-performing children from each income bracket?

I think selection on ability is a good thing and that any problems with the admissions process aren't beyond being overcome.

Quite a few grammars are updating their tests to make it fairer to those who can't afford tutoring as well.

"The point of grammars is that children from all backgrounds can apply and selection is on ability alone. You don't have to be wealthy or posh."

That might be the point- but it's certainly not the reality.

tinofbiscuits Tue 02-Feb-16 13:42:35
The point of grammars is that children from all backgrounds can apply and selection is on ability alone. You don't have to be wealthy or posh.

Sadly that isn't the reality these days.

The point of grammars is that children from all backgrounds can apply and selection is on ability alone. You don't have to be wealthy or posh.

I find it hard to understand the 'not for the likes of us' views in 2016 !

Anybody can surely understand the importance of taking any educational opportunities offered today.

The 'posh' comments are just sad and jealous comments of people who are dissatisfied with their lives.

Privately any person who makes 'snide' comments about being succesful or bright , just wishes it was their child who was achieving .

Or even Grammar....

DD at local comp, DS at local Grammar. Absolutely send him to the Gramnar.

And OP, if you did have a good local comp you would still be fighting your family's attitudes / issues. About him being in top sets, winning prizes , attending STEM club or music clubs after school.

I am not a grammar system champion. My 'top stream' DC is in a good comp, doing well . But you don't have that choice. Why would anyone send a child to a failing high school if they had an alternative?

I echo this. I hate the grammar system but given the secondary choices where I live, I will be trying for both the grammar and the church school.

Support him all the way. Let him go to the Grammar.

I am not a grammar system champion. My 'top stream' DC is in a good comp, doing well . But you don't have that choice. Why would anyone send a child to a failing high school if they had an alternative?

You will get nonsense from your family, they will make comments about him being posh etc. take no notice or be blunt with them. You won't escape that by sending him to the local school anyway. When he wins prizes, passes exams etc they will go 'oooooh clever clogs' in a not good way . So there is NOTHING to be gained by paying any attention to their silly attitudes anyway.

Be proud of your boy and let him take his place.

You yourself value education, you fought to get it for yourself, so you can face down some daft comments!

The Grammar.How I wish we had them where I live .

Grammar. I think the "bright kids will do well anywhere" line is a bit of a cliché and not true. Lots of things can go wrong.

My eldest is at a grammar and it's a great school. He's certainly not allowed to coast and there is no stigma about doing well. I know women, who made deliberate mistakes in their tests or made sure they were average at their rubbish schools in order not to stand out.

Go for the grammar. A school filled with other children committed to academic excellence is best in the long run.

Grammar. He'll be old enough by Sixth Form to really know if he wants to stay on.

Absolutely send your DS to the most academically appropiate school, which in his case is the grammar school.

I have always believed in selective education and the child receiving an education based around their abilities. I know this view is not generally welcomed here or by many academics. However, i can express this view based on my own experiences of four children from all ranges of the abilty spectrum. DD1 2nd year Chemistry @ Cambridge DD2 Yr12 IB Super Selective, DD3 Yr10 'bog standard grammar' who works very hard to keep up will struggle to get B grades to get in to the 6th form. finally DS year 8 mild (SEN) is well catered for in what people on here disparagingly label as a 'secondary modern' and therefore assume it has to be second rate.

The school is excellent in dealing with his breakdowns of behaviour based on frustations related to the idiosyncratic way he learns. DS is making excellent progress at this school and despite what posters might think is at the correct school regardless of its designation.