From Prep school to State Secondary??

I've met unhealthy workaholics and extreme layabouts who come from both state and privately educated backgrounds. You as a parent have the biggest impact long term, way above a few years of schooling.

Well the OP has mentioned some private schools. But not the state alternatives.

Doesn't it depend on what schools you actually have on offer locally / within a daily commuting distance?

The whole generic debate about state schools have discipline issues or paying parents are always invested in their children's education is pointless. Its about what options you have, and how they will suit your DC.

In my area, we are lucky to have state selective grammars that usually feature in the top 10 of schools nationally. Academically, they beat any of the schools (other state and private) in the region by some way. They have amazing facilities (funded for example by opening the gym to the paying public at weekend etc) that previous posters have suggested are only offered at private schools. One local state grammar has its own brand new 50m swimming pool complex (not that its the be all and end all - but my state school didn't even have showers that worked!!)

The local private schools, at £20k a year or thereabouts, therefore have a cohort made up of children who didn't pass for the grammars, parents who would have sent them to private school regardless, and people who moved into the area too late for the selective exams.

I think its not productive to generalise about whether private or state is always best. There are people who went to private school and would only consider sending their children to private school and vice versa. There are some incredibly biased views because every parent wants to think they are doing the best for their children.

So go to see as many of the schools as you can. See if you can visit at a time when lessons are going on so you can observe the pupils. Wander around at the end of school and see how they behave when they leave the school grounds (now I'm sounding like my mother). And then look at the Ofsted ratings and the league tables.

I think there is no certain rule on state school or private school, it really depends on the individual child and the individual school.

Like one of our friends, their DD is very driven person, she went to the local satisfactory school, the school has some really rough students, but school is good at control it. Their DD achived amazing GCSEs and went to Cambridge for Medicine. But their DS is not doing well in state school, it is a relief when they moved him to private school in Y9.

If there is an outstanding state school, I will always choose the state one. This is because we are not rich, the money saved can help children in the future if needed.

DS1 is at independant secondary, because the state school nearby wasn't very good.The secondary schools in our city were not very good, under national average. However, there are big improvements in recent years, so we are watching it , and may let DS2 go to the state one.

If not think about the fees we are paying, DS1's school is really good. There are maybe very rich families ,but his friends are all from professional background, they all work hard, and have good manners. I quite like his friends. School has the atmosphere of valuing accademic achivements, children try hard in exams. And there are lots of clubs, which are mostly free. All the children fit in, no one is left out . There is no bully problem. Lots to say, the most important is DS really like his school.

There is undoubtedly a positive impact on exam performance and academic attainment deriving from effective structure and guidance within schools. That structure and guidance is one of the KSFs of private education.

For some privately educated DC the removal of that structure/guidance is their undoing at university, initially. Some state educated DC, used to being more self-supporting, are better equipped to get on with things at university. But tbh there are a lot more variables at play than this and it is hard to draw meaningful conclusions.

I would also start off with the state school .If you're unhappy move her at a later stage.We moved dd1 In year 9 to the local selective school.Several private schools round here recruit from year 9 and it helped that several children were leaving at the same time .
The biggest difference between state and private for dd has been regular homework and actually learning how to study ( homework was not a regular thing in the state Comp.)Peer Pressure as she got into a very bright crowd.
Much higher expectations,as everyone is pushed to maximise grades .A much wider Syllabus plus languages and sciences were taught to a very high standard .
It really doesn't surprise me that state school pupils are more successful at university .In order to succeed in state schools they need to have enormous drive and ability.Far more than the equivalent leaving private schools.Incidentally dd reckons that the ex state school pupils do better long term than the ex-prep school pupils due to their drive.Finally her bright friends in the state system haven't done that well in their GCSE's.

Bolognese, I'm not sure that's entirely correct. I think State education often misses out soft skills that are vital in business. In many professional p jobs your university qualification has precious little to do with your day to day job function. The ability to critically think, communicate and act as a team are far more important. I think it's easy out to say it's down to an old boys network. The national curriculum needs to be broader and at least attempt to include things which aren't easy to test in a standardised way. I've seen plenty of job candidates that had stellar qualifications but weren't a good fit because they were too narrow in their thinking of lacked confidence.

If she's likely to be in the top two sets, I would go state. The value added score of the schools is most important here. (How many levels each school can move their pupils forward - regardless of ability)

lurked that's about the size of it.

Portraying the research as some sort of proof that state schools provide a superior education to private schools completely misses the point.

And if as bolognese says, we wish as a society to narrow the gap between ultimate outcomes (I remain unconvinced that everyone does but that's another thread I guess) then we need to start by accepting some home truths about the education our state provides.

The power of the old boys' network lives on: privately educated students earn more than those with identical qualifications educated by the state.

Equal pay for equal skills will be the movement for this century.

Iirc didn't the research only show that state educated pupils with slightly lower marks at entrance did equally well as private pupils with slightly higher entrance marks? (And I'm talking about the difference between a and a, not private pupils with all a leaving with equal degrees to state pupils with b's and c's). With the conclusion being that bright children in the state system don't always leave with results reflecting their ability. I.e that in some cases private schools can maximise a childs potential, and in some cases state schools don't maximise potential. Hardly compelling evidence state schools always provide a better grounding for uni. And not to mention there is a world of difference between state schools.

Degrees aside, privately educated children do earn more once they have graduated.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33775082

Selective media stats = lies bad info. Read the ACTUAL report

Clavinova: Your confusing different percentages. Taking into account many factors eg, degree subject, ethnicity, gender, additional schooling effects, GCSE attainment, postcode-based measures of disadvantage etc.

The 9% behind is just one of many contributory statistics that contribute to the overall figure of 4% ahead. Students with similar prior attainment from independent schools do consistently less well at the end of their degree studies than students from other schools and colleges

This agrees with 2015 figures that England's best state schools are outperforming the top private schools.

bojorojo: State pupils do not do better because there are more of them (statistics refresher needed).

Since someone asked, in a university and subject where most students have all As, I have sometimes encountered problems in first year lectures, in the form of people talking (often relevantly, I think) over me such that others can't hear. They are always slightly surprised to be asked not to do this, but seem quite willing to learn! As much as anything it depends on the acoustic of the lecturer theatre: some are much more forgiving than others. I don't recall encountering lack of attention in small group teaching, though lack of the preparation that would let them participate is another matter.

By the way, always be wary about university staff saying "I can tell the students who come from [school type] because...". If they actually know which students from a large enough set to be more than a tiny anecdote come from what kind of school, the university isn't doing its data protection job very well!

Kennington. Many schools have a "no-phones on in the classroom" policy. However, some schools allow research in the classroom via phones. If you allow this, then you allow phones and have to manage the problems that go with that. No SMT should allow a child to have a phone on all day in the classroom in my view. There is no safety or emergency issue at all for the child to contend with but weak management has allowed it.

I think it is highly likely that overall state school pupils obtain firsts. There are way more of them and private schools do not have every single diligent child. A couple of young people I know who have firsts - I am truly amazed at how this was possible! There are firsts from selective universities and then there are firsts from low ranking recruiting universities. There is a massive difference and firsts in some subjects from some universitites that recruit with CCC at A level are not highly prized by many employers. I will now wait for the crescendo of messages saying I am wrong!

send

Basically, yes. Not surprising really. Too many state schooled pupils under expect and end up on courses for which they are over qualified.

At the other end of the spectrum, the difference is marginal, although state schooled students are still slightly more likely to obtain a first.

At the university where I work (very selective), this is almost certainly due to perception in the state sector that only the truly exceptional need apply, and not because the state sector provides better preparation.

The existence of contextual offers shows that there is a widely accepted issue.

Don't the stats basically say that slightly more of the cohort of state students with lower A level grades achieved a better degree class than the cohort of private sector students with lower A level grades. It is not relevant to the cohorts achieving A or above.

Clavinova-way to spin a story. The error is on the HEFCE's main page and it clearly states that even with the mistake corrected it does not change the substance of the report. Quote: "State school graduates outperform independent school graduates by four percentage points."

How can you be four points ahead if you are nine points behind? That doesn't make sense to me. This article in University Business tries to explain;

universitybusiness.co.uk/Article/hefce-blunder-over-state-vs-private-school-degree-passes

(scroll down)

"Although HEFCE has changed the figures in the report, it still repeats that state school pupils are four percentage points ahead rather than nine points behind."

"A likely explanation for this contradiction is that HEFCE is calculating what state school students would have achieved had they the same entry qualifications as independent school students. But they did not.

Three times as many of the students from independent school pupils achieved three or more A grades at A-level. Less than half the state school entrants achieved at least three grade Cs."

Professor Smithers (who discovered the error) said: "While statistical alchemy may be able to turn a nine-point deficit into a four-point advantage, ultimately university admissions tutors have to deal with real people not statistical constructs."

"The report was quietly altered after the error was privately (brought) to HEFCE's attention, but they still have not issued a public correction."

From the Independent;
"For such an august body as HEFCE, in charge of delivering university funding in England, it was a monumental error which, if undetected, could have led to a re-appraisal of university admissions policies.

Because of the impact of the original report, HEFCE should have issued a public correction to its very public report, rather than just correct the figures in the report.

Depends if you want the soft skills well honed!
The level of confidence and ability to behave in certain situations seems to be developed in the private sector.
I would also look at the intake to university - where are they going and what subjects?
I agree about low level mobile phone disruption in some schools. My mother had to deal with this and gave up because the second she said anything she got abuse from the children, and then their parents - because a mobile phone was considered some sort of essential safety requitement!!!
This was five years ago and she wonders if there is something of a lost generation of children just being missed because of tolerance of low level disruption.

DC whose parents have invested considerable resources in ensuring they go to a very good and expensive school are surely also pretty likely to be parents who choose to support their DC's education in multiple other ways, including tutoring? Tutoring takes many different forms. Some lucky DC have all the educational assistance they need in house but if parents cannot help, purchasing help is surely better than taking risks with not understanding/progressing/accumulating gaps in their knowledge (which can be frighteningly insidious)?

Senua, guess there is no data on that.

Of all the kids I know at selective private day school (secondary) about half get tutored or even Kumoned

Am always surprised by this

Clavinova- way to spin a story. The error is on HEFCE's main page and it clearly states that even with the mistake corrected it does not change the substance of the report. Quote: "State school graduates out-perform independent school graduates by four percentage points."

Op - can you say which state school? If it's HBS or similar (say one of the Watford grammars), frankly you can't go wrong.. However if it's more of a comp by distance, e.g. Fortismere, I would put Habs ahead of it, but not Northwood College.